Taycan Turbo S vs. Model S Plaid - really by this much!?

[daveo4EV]

More extrapolation of a tiny part of the world market and drawing, dodgy conclusions about a foreign manufacturer based on your domestic market.
I don't doubt what you write about the US market, which is very rich and therefore important, but the conclusion you draw about it being the reason for the existence of other foreign cars is a non-sequitur.

what other cars do you see photo graphed leaving the Porsche factory with Taycan mules? from other regions of the world. All I can find is Model S test vehicles being driven by Porsche factory drivers against the Taycan test mules…

and I’m using North American sales data cause it’s my region and a signficant world wide market - but Model S was similarily successful in other non-US markets during the same period - it did lead sales in other regions as well where it was being sold - causing similar drops in sales of the non-EV products it was competing against.

no model S = no 2020 Taycan - it’s pretty simple - regulations would have eventually pushed porsche to do a Taycan like vehicle - no doubt - but losing sales starting in 2013 world wide against a competitor for 7 years probably accelerated the process given that the competitor was the type of produce regulations would eventually require…

I’ve never said the Model S is the only reason we have EV’s - I’m simply stating the existing and success of the Model S kinda left everyone with no choice and between lost sales and looming regulations it became important to have an offering sooner rather than later - no Model S means we can wait to have entiries in the market when we’re required to - which by all accounts is like 2035

you all really think there would be a 2020/2021 Taycan without the Model S? I’ll disagree

a 2032 Taycan given looming bans in 2035 on ICE vehicle - yeah I’ll take that bet - but no 2020 Taycan with out the Model S kicking ass world wide…

 

[f1eng]

the California Economy is like the 5th largest economy in the world if you measure it as separate country - it’s not a tiny microcosm - it’s in fact bigger than the entire UK economy - and therefore it’s sales volumes and revenues are conmensuratly also large and influential - the combination of Tesla Success, looming regulations, and actual lost sales lead to the Taycan - but when you start losing market share for 7 years in a row in the 5th largest economy in the world it’s a wake up call that you might need to change your product mix.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/california-economy-overtakes-uk-fifth-biggest-world-a8347291.html#:~:text=New economic data puts the California economy at,of 40 million to the UK's 66 million.

 

[daveo4EV]

you disagree? what part of the California economy being larger than the entire UK economy and by the way selling more vehicles do you find factually incorrect?

it’s a UK news source reporting the data…

 

[daveo4EV]

You are extrapolating the North American market to the rest of the world which is wrong.

that’s the thing - it wasn’t just the US

but the Model S was also doing the same thing in the other markets as well - the US market was consistent with also what was happening elsewhere - the Model S kicked eveyone’s ass world wide with very successful sales WORLD wide - the US data isn’t the only reason, but it’s an example of what was happening where ever Tesla and the Model S had an offering

that combined with looming regulations spurred the other guys - regulations ALONE would not have moved Porsche to have the Taycan in 2019 - but knowing the regulations were coming combined with lost sales WORLDWIDE to an upstart competitor probably accelerated the whole process…

regulations alone do not equal a 2020 Taycan…they equal a 2025 or 2027 Taycan…

the combination of sales impact (Model S) + looming regulations = 2019/2020 Taycan

if sales are not impacted you don’t schedule productions for a vehicile for which there is no demand (a common complaint in 2014 from ICE vendors) and it’s not required - no one was talking about banning ICE’s for the 2020 model year - it’s alwasy 2035 or later…you honestly think the germans wouldn’t have waited until 2032 or 2033 to offer their first serious EV’s without the Model S eating their lunch?

 

[daveo4EV]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

the sales section of the Model S wikipedia page documents the Model S dominating the small size but signficiant high end sedan market from 2014-2020 - yes North America isn’t the only reason for this - but the Model S is/was a world wide success and pushed vendors to respond

The Model S topped the European luxury car segment in 2015, ahead of the Mercedes-Benz S-Class (14,990), the traditional leader.[293]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#cite_note-300

North American sales/experience are not the only reason, but is in fact a mirror of what was happening world wide - Tesla pushed the automotive industry to have EV products sooner than regullations alone would’ve caused and I’ll also state probably better products - without the Model S we’d have more products like the Leaf and fewer like the Taycan - and we wouldn’t have them until the 2030’s

2016-2020[edit]

The Model S was the world's top selling plug-in car for the second year running.[23][24] The Model S rank fell to second place after the BAIC EC-Series city car, which sold over 78,000 units in China.[18]

The Model S continued to rank as the second most-sold electric car in history after the Nissan Leaf.[18][19][20][21] As of December 2018, cumulative global sales totaled about 263,504 units.[18][19][20][21][228]

 

[schad]

I'm simply stating the fact that in the US the Model from 2013-2019 was the sales leader in it's segment by quite a margin (25-30% total sales for the entire market segment) - to say that had no impact on other vendors is simply putting your head in the sand.

I've literally never before seen someone claim that the Model S is in the same market segment as the MB S-class and BMW 7-series.

 

[ORZOWEI]

I think there´s no doubt about the facts. Without Tesla, EV sports cars they whould not exist at this moment in time. Maybe 10 or 15 years later, but not now, for sure.
Every car maker is now jumping on the train of electricity because Tesla (and the consumers after trying EV cars) pushed them so hard that they can´t delay it anymore...

 

[KensingtonPark]

I've literally never before seen someone claim that the Model S is in the same market segment as the MB S-class and BMW 7-series.

I think that it absolutely is not. However, it is in the ballpark from a price perspective, so it does enter the consideration set for a certain subset of buyers. I know a few people who were considering a 7 series for example, who ultimately purchased a Model S. They absolutely do not consider them as the same class of car, but take into account the overall profile costs and differences in environmental impact. This is partly why you have these unending and circular conversations about whether these cars are in the same category.

 

[Jhenson29]

please illuminate us with your deep insights - what fallacies do you see? Are the sales figures made up? Did panamera sales not go down?

I’m showing my work - where is yours? All of my assertiions can be tested and validated - can your opinions?

I know this was in response to someone else, but I pointed out your fallacy here in post #249:
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...d-really-by-this-much.6064/page-17#post-96417

I told you the sales numbers don't prove your argument on their own. They can all be true. But you can't say that the Taycan was the result of that. That part is conjecture. Not fact. Don't confuse them. The credibility of your claim is not as strong as the credibility of your data. Don't substitute one for the other.

You don't know what Porsche's internal product road map was. You don't know that they weren't planning a similar road map to what they implemented independent of Tesla.

Or do you?

Do you have that specific evidence? I solicited evidence for arguments. And it was sincere. I'll happily listen to new information. But if you're just going to spam 20 more posts about sales, then I'm quite done.

What else did you argue...that they tested it against the Model S? They made it a sedan to compete with the Model S?

Early hybrids were focused on the Panamera. It's reasonable to assume that Porsche's first EV would have been planned to be a sedan independent of Tesla.

Separately, once that car exists, regardless of why they decided to make it, it makes sense to benchmark it against the Model S. So, if they would benchmark it against the Model S independent of whether or not they conceived of it in response to the Model S, then you also can't use that testing as proof either.

And...what you're really probably missing here is...I'm not even saying your conclusion is wrong. I'm saying you can't claim it based on your current facts. It's not sufficient data in scope. It could be that your conclusion is correct.

I don't buy it personally, at least not the magnitude of years of delay claimed (I think that's just much too strong).

But whether or not it's correct, the way you're getting there is wrong. And that matters, as even if the conclusion was independently correct this time, it may not be next time. Do what you want with that information.

 

[feye]

I'm simply stating the fact that in the US the Model from 2013-2019 was the sales leader in it's segment by quite a margin (25-30% total sales for the entire market segment) - to say that had no impact on other vendors is simply putting your head in the sand.

that time has passed - but we were talking bout Tesla influencing the industry and being a sales leader in a major market is by definition market influence. the other vendors lost sales to the Model S and Porsche's first EV to market was an EXLICITE response and benchmarked against the Model s.

If you think Tesla had no impact on Porsche you're cherry picking your facts.

The problem on this argument is, that you start off with another fanboy fantasy! Just because the price of product is comparable, does not mean the whole product is comparable. Even in this form there are many people who would have liked to buy an EV, but could not stomach the cheap interior and bad handling. Taycan fixed these problems.

 

[feye]

...but I might not like the way it drove and advised me to rent one for a week to see. He also said the interior quality was nowhere near as good as we were used to.
Much more suited to the US market than the European.
No surprise and quite understandable but extrapolating US success as relevant to the world is always wrong IME.

This is exactly what I try to say. The US market for the German car industry is relevant but not a single brand with a substandard money losing product!

Interesting fact: Years ago, when the US-China "trade war" started, the 5th largest product export category from US to China were cars, but not T!!! It is mostly the German brands producing larger SUVs in the US, which are also popular in China.

The car industry is a global industry, so you need to look at all markets, sometimes event the small markets like Norway to understand what is going on.

From 2015 till 2020, the European EV market was entirely driven by CO2 emission targets. The ID.3 was rushed out to customers with buggy software. T became profitable because of penalty payment from other brands.

Now in 2021 the global EV market is entirely driven by new regulations: net zero carbon. The EU 2050, now China 2060. VW, Merc, etc all already anounced that they would stop in ICE development. Then a few month later they said, we will not even build ICE cars beyond 2030. Why??? Because they need to compete with T???

 

[daveo4EV]

but markets are price segemnet based - and the Model S dominated it’s price segment that fact that you don’t think it’s worth the price is fine and you didn’t buy one (but @feye did but doesn’t like it) - the fact is Tesla sold products in that market segment and both grew the market and took sales from the existing players in the same price segment.

It’s irrelivant that you personally don’t feel Tesla deserves to be lumped into that segement - they are in that segment by price and they sold 25-30% of ALL the cars that were in that segment - tha’ts a fact. That by definition means they won that segement because the other guys with similiar priced (but superior) product sold fewer units - they LOST sales in that segment.

it’s not a fan boy argument - it’s a fact of sales data. in 2015 TEsla sold like 27,500 $120k sedans - that was more volume than ANY other $100k sedan from any other vendor.

They won the segement by sales - you disagree their product is inferior, but despite that they sold more than any other vendor…

that caused the other guys to take notice - Tesla was selling more than they were with an inferior product…at the same price point. They had to respond or exit the market.

 

[daveo4EV]

th

This is exactly what I try to say. The US market for the German car industry is relevant but not a single brand with a substandard money losing product!

Interesting fact: Years ago, when the US-China "trade war" started, the 5th largest product export category from US to China were cars, but not T!!! It is mostly the German brands producing larger SUVs in the US, which are also popular in China.

The car industry is a global industry, so you need to look at all markets, sometimes event the small markets like Norway to understand what is going on.

From 2015 till 2020, the European EV market was entirely driven by CO2 emission targets. The ID.3 was rushed out to customers with buggy software. T became profitable because of penalty payment from other brands.

Now in 2021 the global EV market is entirely driven by new regulations: net zero carbon. The EU 2050, now China 2060. VW, Merc, etc all already anounced that they would stop in ICE development. Then a few month later they said, we will not even build ICE cars beyond 2030. Why??? Because they need to compete with T???

they need to compete wiht the 3 and Y which is currently leading sales in most countries…

 

[Dee]

Is there a way to ignore this topic in the forum board?
I'm getting pretty fed up seeing this one topic again and again.
I tried "ignore" but it still shows up.
Any help will be highly appreciated. ??

 

[JimBob]

No let it run. Some of the premier posters on this forum are going to toe to toe. Great stuff.