[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[Tooney]

Porsche Cuts Prices in China by Over 30% to Clear Inventory

 

[Mr.Smith]

Looks like Rivian is staring to merge more with VW group.
I'm certain Scout will be a reskinned Rivian too

https://insideevs.com/news/761921/vw-rivian-r2-underpin-tech/

 

[chun]

Porsche Cuts Prices in China by Over 30% to Clear Inventory

That's standard, as Porsche is planning to close most dealerships in China. Clearing inventory and then shutting down; is what happened to more than 30% of their dealerships in china since Q4 2024.

It's good time to get official Porsche tools in china/from china, as dealerships just leave them behind for employees to steal and sell ?

 

[ct14garage]

That's standard, as Porsche is planning to close most dealerships in China. Clearing inventory and then shutting down; is what happened to more than 30% of their dealerships in china since Q4 2024.

It's good time to get official Porsche tools in china/from china, as dealerships just leave them behind for employees to steal and sell ?

That’s how I got more than 20 PIWIS tablets LOL LOL

 

[whitex]

but what percentage of sports luxury CUV buyers prioritize vehicle dynamics?

I always thought it was the percentage that chooses Porsche over Mercedes or BMW or Lexus. Sure there were some who may also do it for esthetics (though personally I never found the ICE Macan very appealing) , and of course some for the badge (try to impress others), but I always thought that was a small percentage. Driving dynamics, engines and brakes were always my reason to choose Porsche over the other guys.

 

[whitex]

Porsche, like it's parent company VW, and like its brother, Audi, will probably end up having Chinese "partners" build their cars for the Chinese market, the biggest auto market in the world, and slap a logo on it.

Have you heard of AUDI (not Audi)? Will there be a PORSCHE in addition to Porsche ?

 

[Wivenhoe]

So VW group clearly admits it can't compete with Chinese cars. Now, how long until they admit it in the rest of the world also? My bet is that by 2030 we will have VW group cars built by Chinese on sale in Europe. Seems like the perfect deal for Chinese brands to export their products without tariffs.
Pair that with Rivian software to adhere to any privacy & security laws EU & USA have, and bob's your uncle, you got a modern EV, not built by europe that's no longer capable of building cars that keep up with technology.

The EU saw that coming so apply tariffs on Chinese manufactured cars - it will rise to 45% in a couple of years - the power of the German manufacturers holding sway over the EU. That why BYD etc are dumping cars in the UK to make up for a tightening EU market.

 

[Jonathan S.]

And this illustrates the tricky position Porsche finds itself in as EVs become more commonplace:

-without the siren song of exceptional engines, there’s less to justify the higher prices Porsche has traditionally commanded.

-If a Porsche can’t count on its dynamics to justify its pricing, what justifies it?

Having sat in (but not driven) a Macan 4 EV optioned up to $103K, to me the interior ambiance didn’t measure up to that of our $70K Genesis GV60, much less that of the iX. I have no doubt that the Macan would tackle a twisty road more confidently, but what percentage of sports luxury CUV buyers prioritize vehicle dynamics? Macan sales results favoring the slowest, least capable versions would suggest that most of those buyers don’t care.

Interesting comparison, thanks.
I test drove a Genesis G70 back in 2019 and was extremely expressed (except for the back seat, which failed the family test drive, even though our daughter was only nine years at the time -- big contrast with the i4, which is fine now even when my wife and I are setting behind or in front of each other).
I also sat in a Hyundai Ioniq 5 whose interior and high-tech gizmos seemed more like an upscale marque.
(I'm old enough to remember when Hyundai first went on sale in the U.S., and anyone who bought them was some combination of not smart enough buy a decent Japanese car and/or too broke to afford anything else.)

Now EVs are allowing Hyundai / Kia / Genesis to leap frog the established ICE competition.
And if Chinese EVs are ever allowed to be sold here ...

 

[Zcd1]

Now EVs are allowing Hyundai / Kia / Genesis to leap frog the established ICE competition.
And if Chinese EVs are ever allowed to be sold here ...

True x 2.

H/K/G EV tech is at/near state of the art, with some of the fastest DC charging available in any mass-market/upmarket vehicle.

The new Taycan and Macan EV are even better in that regard, but of course at higher price points.

Where legacy mfrs also still have an edge IMO is suspension fine-tuning. Our GV60P could use a smidge more rebound control, but overall rides and handles very nicely, and it’s an extremely pleasant place to spend time.

 

[chun]

The EU saw that coming so apply tariffs on Chinese manufactured cars - it will rise to 45% in a couple of years - the power of the German manufacturers holding sway over the EU. That why BYD etc are dumping cars in the UK to make up for a tightening EU market.

It may raise all it wants, but at some point it will be cheaper for companies to import chinese versions of their cars to sell in europe, despite say an additional 100% tariff.

You're forgetting that chinese EVs are starting to leapfrog european EVs. Buyers will rather pay 40k for a chinese 20k ev, than 40k on a shitty ID.4, when the quality discrepancy is so big - and customers are already doing that in Australia, china, and most of asia.

And don't think for 1 second that chinese EVs are not leapfrogging european ones. NIO ET9 has 27 first in the world checkmarks ) Porsche's couldn't dream about it; one of these accomplishments being in-house built ADAS chip that outperforms "state of the art" nivida adas chips by 2-4x times. That's the difference between chinese automkaers and european ones, chinese ones realised it takes more than just cogwheels to build a car and vertically integrated everything.

 

[Zcd1]

I always thought it was the percentage that chooses Porsche over Mercedes or BMW or Lexus. Sure there were some who may also do it for esthetics (though personally I never found the ICE Macan very appealing) , and of course some for the badge (try to impress others), but I always thought that was a small percentage. Driving dynamics, engines and brakes were always my reason to choose Porsche over the other guys.

Seems to me that a large percentage of Macan drivers I see are soccer moms, which likely means that the Porsche badge was among the most important purchase considerations.

And yes, most of those are base models, so the fact that a Macan is among the least expensive ways to get a Porsche badge likely isn’t a coincidence…

 

[daveo4EV]

VW/Audi/Porsche remain in trouble - and yet there are signs of hope from other german's - this is what can happen if you focus on improving the future vs. reinventing the past (i.e. eFuels)

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/bmw/ix3-prototype/first-drive

looks promising…

I'm hoping to replace my Hybrid SUV with full eV in 2027/2028 - if this article pans out to be mostly true - BMW just jumped to top of the list of candidates…I'm not committing to buying this car - but I will evaluate it once it's as product - but based on expectations and BMW history and likely hood of mostly true - it could. be a compelling product…we'll see.

 

[chun]

I guess Porsche need a Taycan Turbo GT Weissach Ultra, where they remove the doors too, now; or at least a tune from @prj

https://www.motortrend.com/news/xiaomi-su7-nurburgring-lap-record-electric-sedan

Production version of Xiaomi su7 ultra ( priced at $73,724 ) officially beat the record for a production 4door car at Nürburgring of 7 minutes, 7.55 seconds set by Taycan Turbo GT Weissach by 2.6 seconds.
This also beats Rimac Nivera's record by 0.341 seconds.

All of it while having backseats.

 

[Zcd1]

I guess Porsche need a Taycan Turbo GT Weissach Ultra, where they remove the doors too, now; or at least a tune from @prj

All of it while having backseats.

Did you notice the top speed?!? 214.8 mph! ?

And from a company who just started making cars just a few years ago…

 

[daveo4EV]

Did you notice the top speed?!? 214.8 mph! ?

And from a company who just started making cars just a few years ago…

I'm not worried about when they started making cars - I'm worried about when they started making/understanding brakes

with the rise of ubiquitous information it's hard to have a technology "mote" - Porsche's secret sauce is less and less secret and the only thing separating products is time spend to get the product where it needs to be…and while that's not cheap it's a surmountable problem if you're determined enough.

the Chinese are starting from scratch but have clear goals and fewer constraints imposed by legacy processes and they understand manufacturing and have govt. subsidies - the german's lack agility and have lots of accumulated constraints (supply chain, labor contracts, investors, perspectives, reverence for the past, etc) from 100's of years of advanced watch making…

Porsche is analog - Tesla/Lucid/Rivian/Chinese/other's are digital…

digital kills analog (or at best moves analog from mainstream to niche)…

we'll see how this plays out - but it's not appearing that VW/Audi/Porsche fully understand the game they are playing…