[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[Tooney]

Porsche walks back EVs - people still want gas cars
Porsche customers are reportedly not taking kindly to electrification, and the marque is more than willing to accommodate.
Porsche invests in internal combustion amid tanking Taycan sales and standout ICE model sales.
. . .
Part of Porsche’s reticence to double down on electric offerings is the potential of synthetic e-fuels, something Steiner thinks could be a big part of the future. After all, you can’t just ignore the billions of combustion-powered vehicles already on the world’s roads.

 

[f1eng]

Porsche walks back EVs - people still want gas cars
Porsche customers are reportedly not taking kindly to electrification, and the marque is more than willing to accommodate.
Porsche invests in internal combustion amid tanking Taycan sales and standout ICE model sales.
. . .
Part of Porsche’s reticence to double down on electric offerings is the potential of synthetic e-fuels, something Steiner thinks could be a big part of the future. After all, you can’t just ignore the billions of combustion-powered vehicles already on the world’s roads.

A friend of mine runs a fuel company synthesising petrol from hydrocarbons in the atmosphere using a patented catalytic method which uses vast amounts of electricity.
Last time I spoke to him he thought it would only ever be feasible for motor racing quantities/price.

The production plant was due to be next to a hydroelectric dam in Scotland I think to use "surplus" electricity.
The prototype plant is running producing small quantities and the RAF have flown a small plane using it, but not for long.

I don't see it being viable in quantity really - like hydrogen the cost of production and distribution (of hydrogen) look impractical and poor compared to using the electricity directly to power EVs.

You are still stuck with noisy complex engines with pitifully narrow power band running so hot they damage their own lubricant - but people do lean towards the familiar.

 

[daveo4EV]

Porsche is in denial and not pushing for better EV's … they don't know how to compete so they are retreating to past glory - that has rarely been a successful business strategy.

perhapes the sales are down because they increased the prices beyond it's value proposition - self sabotage to prove a predefined point - they don't want EV's to work - they have no special sauce and this digital stuff confuses them.

 

[chun]

Porsche walks back EVs - people still want gas cars
Porsche customers are reportedly not taking kindly to electrification, and the marque is more than willing to accommodate.
Porsche invests in internal combustion amid tanking Taycan sales and standout ICE model sales.
. . .
Part of Porsche’s reticence to double down on electric offerings is the potential of synthetic e-fuels, something Steiner thinks could be a big part of the future. After all, you can’t just ignore the billions of combustion-powered vehicles already on the world’s roads.

Goes in contradiction directly to what the ceo said. I mentioned it in another thread.

the plan is to have 1 kind of each power source platform in each vehicle category.

SUV: macan as ev, caynne as ice + hybrid

New bigger suv category coming: probably in all 3 drive trains, following bmw example

4 door sedan: taycan as ev, panamera as hybrid + ice

Sport: 718 as ev, 911 as hybrid + ice

they do invest heavily in syntethic fuel, because the plan is to have all drive trains available and meet regulations

 

[Fun TC Driving]

Porsche’s very successful past strategy has been to make exemplary engineered products and to demand a massive price for them due to its quality and its exclusivity. That strategy has worked well to this point in time , i.e., though 2023 Porsche was reputed to have a 23% ROI margin — alleged to be the highest in the industry or tied with Ferrari.

While all that was true and is still true of Porsche ICE purchasers, will both halves of its superlative quality and it attracking enough buyers who will knowingly pay a high premium for Porsches, will there be enough Porsche’s EV buyers in sufficient quantity, i.e., will there be enough of us willing to pay lots more to own a Porsche EV than we need to pay for highest quality competitive?

By 2027 other than 911’s, what will Porsche have that allows it to be so price arrogant? Especially what EV’s will it have that stand out then as 911’s do now?

 

[whitex]

perhapes the sales are down because they increased the prices beyond it's value proposition - self sabotage to prove a predefined point - they don't want EV's to work - they have no special sauce and this digital stuff confuses them.

Sales of ICE are also up because they announced their discontinuation, so dealers and speculators are stocking up, hoping to cash in once there are no 718's on sale at all. Planned scarcity is one way to boost sales.

Of course you're not wrong on the Porsche EV pricing. Perhaps it's the latest generation of MBA's:
CEO: "We need to make more money so the stock goes up"
MBA: "Hmmm, eureka! My spreadsheet says if we increase prices by 20%, our revenue will go up by 20%, costs will stay fixed, our profit margin will double, our profits will almost double after the bonus I am owed for this brilliant idea! I am taking next month off as my mental health holiday."

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

loving the factual context being brought to this thread - keep it up!

well, someone has to counter the fact-free allegations of other posts, for instance this one: ?

Porsche is in denial and not pushing for better EV's … they don't know how to compete so they are retreating to past glory - that has rarely been a successful business strategy.

perhapes the sales are down because they increased the prices beyond it's value proposition - self sabotage to prove a predefined point - they don't want EV's to work - they have no special sauce and this digital stuff confuses them.

Look, David, we’ve been over this so many times: it’s not all about EVs, nor is it about “software”. I watched the SavageGeese interview with Rawlinson - your remark that “no one speaks like this at Porsche” intrigued me - and I’m left with the following observations:
- *every* goddam single automotive CEO is a master of humble bragging; they all work hard, create a culture of customer obsession/creating value for customers, have the best damn tech/product and also the best brains/talent in the world
- when you only make hammers/EVs, you find that the singularly most important technology are nails/drivetrain packaging; not only that, but your role is not to sell niche luxury cars, it is to advance mankind by driving down the cost of high tech. You know who else says that? Mate Rimac, Oliver Blume, every Audi ad, and ZenicaNC’s favorite government. ?

It is very clear that in the US, EVs are (as the video said) a left-vs-right issue, and not at all one of technology or infrastructure. Look no further than the declared intentions of the incoming administration, or the letters section of any Car and Driver in recent years.. Let’s take a break from smearing those who can make cars other than EVs, because they may have a better understanding of their customers or what the near future holds. And while we’re on the topic of packaging, one could say the turbo-hybrid is, too, the most advanced in the world, as would be the 6-stroke IC engine patent Porsche filed last year.

As to why cars get pricier and depreciate faster: . I don’t fully agree with him, but he’s not much wrong. (And besides, as I’m sure you could tell us, the Macan EV is more car for less money than the Taycan was, so that’s progress?)

 

[feye]

And the range on my G580 is just 240 miles

Painful! Well, I guess you did not buy if for long distance!

 

[feye]

Porsche-Piech family pushes for VW German plant closures, FT reports

FT link (may be paywalled): https://www.ft.com/content/c96180ff-4b23-4044-83e7-e44b8f2064a0

The billionaire Porsche-Piëch family, Volkswagen’s majority owner, has taken a hardline stance in backing the company’s plans to close several German factories, as the threat of diminished dividends looms.

Now we are getting to the heart of it. VW has made over 20billion last year in profits, but did spend a lot on investments, so the div is low. These people whine so that they have enough momentum to close down slightly more "expensive" German plants.

 

[feye]

I've read so many people complaining about EV range, how "range is king", and yet they don't all go buy Lucid Airs with massive range. Nor do we see most Cybertruck owner shelling out for the range extender for the additional 120 miles of range. Very few people actually need more than 200 miles of range, and a large portion of those will not need it once charging infrastructure gets better.

Need, no! Want, YEEEEES!

Why, because here in China/Germany even with dense charging network, charging still sucks big time. I'd rather have a bigger battery and don't charge at all, that's the reality!

My wife loves the Zeekr 001 with 140kWh. Gives her almost 1000km range for her commute. She only charges once a month and never outside on a fast charger with insane heavy cables lying in the dirt.

 

[snstevens]

well, someone has to counter the fact-free allegations of other posts, for instance this one: ?


Look, David, we’ve been over this so many times: it’s not all about EVs, nor is it about “software”. I watched the SavageGeese interview with Rawlinson - your remark that “no one speaks like this at Porsche” intrigued me - and I’m left with the following observations:
- *every* goddam single automotive CEO is a master of humble bragging; they all work hard, create a culture of customer obsession/creating value for customers, have the best damn tech/product and also the best brains/talent in the world
- when you only make hammers/EVs, you find that the singularly most important technology are nails/drivetrain packaging; not only that, but your role is not to sell niche luxury cars, it is to advance mankind by driving down the cost of high tech. You know who else says that? Mate Rimac, Oliver Blume, every Audi ad, and ZenicaNC’s favorite government. ?

It is very clear that in the US, EVs are (as the video said) a left-vs-right issue, and not at all one of technology or infrastructure. Look no further than the declared intentions of the incoming administration, or the letters section of any Car and Driver in recent years.. Let’s take a break from smearing those who can make cars other than EVs, because they may have a better understanding of their customers or what the near future holds. And while we’re on the topic of packaging, one could say the turbo-hybrid is, too, the most advanced in the world, as would be the 6-stroke IC engine patent Porsche filed last year.

As to why cars get pricier and depreciate faster: . I don’t fully agree with him, but he’s not much wrong. (And besides, as I’m sure you could tell us, the Macan EV is more car for less money than the Taycan was, so that’s progress?)

An interesting video, but my takeaways are somewhat different --

• The Cost of Tech in New Cars -- It is clearly more expensive to build cars today, but the tech required by governments goes into cars ranging from Hondas, Kias, Toyotas, Teslas, Fords, GM, Volkswagens, up to the high-end luxury and performance vehicles. The rapid increase in price of the high-end and luxury vehicles has more to do with pricing decisions than with tech. If it was just "tech" then no one could afford to buy a Kia or a Tesla.
• Depreciation -- The cause of the rapid depreciation of new Luxury/Performance vehicles in the first 2-3 years is more likely caused by the rapid increase in the "List Price" that is mentioned in the video. You don't see that same level of depreciation at the "low end", but the tech in the cars is sometimes the same.
• Buy Used -- There is a clear message in the video that if you want a Luxury/Performance vehicle, your best bet is to buy a used one. Was this intended to be some sort of revelation? I've heard this many times in the past, including prior to the advent of EVs, so not sure what's new here. The reason so many of us buy "new" is that we are willing to pay a premium for making the car just what we want it to be (think a heavily optioned Taycan). That premium goes away as depreciation very quickly.
• ICE vs. EV -- The speaker is clearly in love with his ICE cars. God bless him, but we are at the start of a sea change in mobility that isn't going to stop, even when it hits rough patches. If his argument is that Luxury/Performance cars should remain ICE only, then I respectfully disagree. I've driven both a Taycan and a GT3 RS at PECL, and I loved the experience in both of them.

At the end of the day, the world is moving toward EVs, and many diehards will fight it all the way. There will be affordable EVs with modest depreciation, and luxury/performance EVs with more rapid depreciation. The "engine" may have changed, but the story will be the same.

 

[whitex]

Need, no! Want, YEEEEES!

Why, because here in China/Germany even with dense charging network, charging still sucks big time. I'd rather have a bigger battery and don't charge at all, that's the reality!

My wife loves the Zeekr 001 with 140kWh. Gives her almost 1000km range for her commute. She only charges once a month and never outside on a fast charger with insane heavy cables lying in the dirt.

Where does she charge once a month on AC charger (since you said not a fast DC charger)?

 

[feye]

Where does she charge once a month on AC charger (since you said not a fast DC charger)?

Carpark at home with private wallbox.

 

[whitex]

It's not just the "smartphone on wheels" features that the legacy auto makers like Porsche are falling back on, it's other things too:
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/01/s...an-for-title-of-euro-ncaps-safest-ev-in-2024/
Glimmer of hope for German automakers, even though the Chinese manufacturers beat out Porsche on safety, the overall safest car was a German manufacturer - Mercedes.

PS> Read an interesting theory on why traditional automakers are falling behind, fast:
https://insideevs.com/news/747430/toyota-kaizen-china-ev-cm/

 

[moto_geek]

My only complaint for me and qwerks for Doug DeMuro is range. He mention an current podcast I agree with is people want to be able to go across the country without wasting accumulate charge time of an extra day to achieve. He still agree electric is going to be in our future and plans to get a EV himself soon.

With high power solar panel bodies or some break through that allows us to got 2x or 3x the range now will make many consumer or manufactures to reconsider EV.