[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[ZenicaNC]

@ZenicaNC
I agree with your other points of principle, but I wouldn’t be bothered about any authority eavesdropping on my boring life!
Regardless of likelihood, commands affecting operation sent to the vehicle should any hostilities break out would have the biggest impact!
But any party with enough motivation, knowledge and wherewithal could do that to any connected car?

My life is probably very boring as well, you certainly won't find paparazzi chasing me down to post my speedo pics or to body shame me! (just kidding, no speedos here, sorry for any imagery that may have popped into your head) but I still don't want it collated with a million other people to form the basis of statistical data which proves useful to a hostile foreign government.

If my own government is doing it, which I am sure they are just to a lesser degree, I can only hope it is done for the betterment of this country and by extension, each of us in this country. Certainly not to the betterment of iran, nk or china.

Paranoia is not a bad thing to have. However, if you think those same Chinese companies have not compromised non-Chinese manufacturers, you'd be letting your guard down and having a major blind spot.

I have made the same assumption for years. Without resorting to living without modern conveniences and becoming a troglodyte, I just accept certain inalienable truths, prices will rise, politicians will philander and you too will grow old. haha, just kidding. The song popped into my head. I have a (possibly false sense) of security in believing that some of the more established US tech companies that develop and deign in the US but manufacture overseas do so in a way to mitigate most forms of intrusion or at a minimum, be able o detect it. As was the case in recent years with a cell phone manufactured in china. A 3rd party cyber security firm found how the factory added hidden spyware. In the case of some, like Apple, I think it is beyond the ability of the manufacturing partners to add malicious code into the original code in a way that Apple wouldn't be able to detect. I've had product manufactured overseas, both Asia and the EU. All software was packed into a proprietary compression which could only be mounted and loaded by the writer I supplied. IF they added or changed the code, I could read one and see that additions were made. In terms of manufacturing, I'm a pimple on a ticks ass compared to Apple, Microsoft or Google. I've no doubt they would at least be aware of the incursion. Whether or not they did anything about it is another issue entirely.

I work in cyber-security, I pretty much assume all my devices, phones, computers, cars, have back doors or hidden unpatched vulnerabilities known by 2 or 3 state actors (one of them is probably my own government), which can be used should they choose to do so. If you don't want to be spied on, you gotta get off the grid, no connected devices of any kind (including cars).

Yes, I make the same assumptions, I just draw the line between the evil of the US government and the evil of the chinese government. One I can live with. While I cannot eliminate every possible area where they may have compromised my personal (online) security, I do try to avoid things that seem like I'd just be surrendering. ie, that pet robot or a car from byd.

As for Chinese copying, sure, they used to, but I gotta tell you, they now have better automotive technology than most western automakers, so who are they copying from, space aliens? They have in fact advanced beyond the western tech in a few fields. Why do you think TikTok is so much more successful than youtube shorts? Better algorithms. Trump tried forcing them to sell the algorithms to US company (his buddy Larry), but Tik Tok just moves all the algorithms to China. Today, if US was to simply take over TikTok's US offices, they wouldn't get much tech from it. Chinese cars are more reliable than traditional automakers too, so who exactly did they copy that reliability tech from?

I can't speak to that, never having been in a chinese car. As for tik tok, I avoid that like I would The Night King. Frankly, I like YT Shorts. Of the few tik tok videos I have seen on other peoples devices, they seem no different. At its core, we're talking about a <60 second video of someone doing whatever they can to get clicks. How much of the algorithm is critical in this? As for "recommendations", I pay zero attention to those rabbit holes. It's like eavesdropping on a spicy conversation and finding it more enthralling than the one taking place in front of you. Pure distraction.

I never understood the argument about copying.

Why should the end-customer care who copies who? For all I care, copy whoever you want, as long as I get the best product. This is the same tribalistic childish argument that IOS/Android users keep having: :"IOS copied from android, no android copied from IOS this first" Blah blah blah

What I actually wanted to add: BYD came out with their "Active Ride" alternative before Porsche did. So who copied who? Might have something to do with BYD hiring key talent from Porsche, sure, but they still released it first.

And on the tracking / security topic, do people not know even app makers can generate exact 3d model of your space and track movements in it, simply based on wi-fi signal data, baked into any app as basic access? IOS is a tad better, because they make apps ask you: " any app that wants to interact with devices on your network must ask for permission the first time that it tries to browse your local network ". It's not even new technology:



So what, are you not gonna use any app or wifi anymore? People need to chill... You've been "compromised" long long ago.

I care about copying because A) to support it means you supported a cheat and a thief and B) it isn't the same thing as competition born from innovation.

Yes, I am aware that the host of sensors and data my phone collects can be used by apps to generate all sorts of information. Walking around with a camera and microphone on my wrist and in my pocket collecting data on my every move. I can't stop that. What I can do is look to see what permissions an app is seeking and then decide if I want to grant it. I skip many popular apps and even some useful ones because an app that lets me identify a plant from a picture doesn't need to know who my contacts are or see my purchase history.

I just do it the olde fashioned way, I contact the botany dept at my local university and ask them!

We each can only live by our own set of rules and values, for me, it would mean never driving a chinese car. As for the topic at hand, I doubt a venerable company like Porsche will be supplanted by byd, look at the Hyundai Genesis for example. An amazing car. Chock full of the same tech as its German rivals yet it didn't stop BMW from producing the 7 series. Mercedes didn't shutter Mayback or even the S class. Porsche will need to pivot and adapt for sure, but "be in trouble"? No. That is just doom&gloom mongering. (probably by actors working on behalf of byd!) lol

 

[Tooney]

There is no consensus among management over the issue of plant closures, another source said.

UBS analyst Patrick Hummel estimated last week that a headcount reduction of at least 30,000 was necessary to deliver on VW's 6.5% operating profit target for 2026. "A 'lukewarm' compromise (i.e. without plant closures) would likely not be appreciated by the market," Hummel wrote in a note.

VW and workers inch towards cost-cutting deal, sources say

 

[Tooney]

We each can only live by our own set of rules and values, for me, it would mean never driving a chinese car. As for the topic at hand, I doubt a venerable company like Porsche will be supplanted by byd, look at the Hyundai Genesis for example. An amazing car. Chock full of the same tech as its German rivals yet it didn't stop BMW from producing the 7 series. Mercedes didn't shutter Mayback or even the S class. Porsche will need to pivot and adapt for sure, but "be in trouble"? No. That is just doom&gloom mongering. (probably by actors working on behalf of byd!) lol

BYD is taking the auto market by storm, forcing legacy rivals to make desperate moves

 

[ZenicaNC]

BYD is taking the auto market by storm, forcing legacy rivals to make desperate moves

The same thing was said of Tesla yet I must have missed the big funeral for Ford. Oh wait, Ford is still here. GM, then I missed the GM funeral. No, that's not it either since GM is still around. Heck, I even have the Cadillac credit card. Chrysler, it was the Chrysler funeral. uhm, the jokes on me because I think they might have actually died but not at the hand of Tesla byd or anyone else other than the fault in their own engineering/manufacturing.

In ten years time we can revisit this topic and rejoice that byd wasn't the antichrist of Western auto manufacturing by becoming the Weyland-Yutani of the auto world.

 

[cometguy]

The next 5 years will be unsettled.
, , ,
My view is that government legislation compelling Full EVs will probably adjust in line with customer demand and will pivot towards towards plug in hybrids with increased range. Once their range exceeds 100 miles the case for full electrics weakens. But the rub then is price difference of plug in hybrids compared with mild hybrids.

I've been saying for years that PHEVs will likely pick up a lot this decade before BEVs go "mainstream". I've been waiting for the better part of a decade for Porsche to come out with a Macan E-Hybrid; I'd buy that over a Macan BEV now, if it were available, because I do numerous cross-country road trips every year. I hope that, given Porsche's change in plans (and saying they'll go more with hybrids the rest of this decade) that they'll finally come out with a Macan PHEV with the 26-kWh battery pack that's now in the Cayenne and Panamera E-Hybrids. The Cayenne E-Hybrid is just too big for me, and the new ones are too expensive for what you get (starting at close to $100k USD with no options is not proper for a base Cayenne PHEV). Porsche is shooting themselves in the foot with their crazy escalating MSRPs on new four-door vehicles.

 

[daveo4EV]

I've been saying for years that PHEVs will likely pick up a lot this decade before BEVs go "mainstream". I've been waiting for the better part of a decade for Porsche to come out with a Macan E-Hybrid; I'd buy that over a Macan BEV now, if it were available, because I do numerous cross-country road trips every year. I hope that, given Porsche's change in plans (and saying they'll go more with hybrids the rest of this decade) that they'll finally come out with a Macan PHEV with the 26-kWh battery pack that's now in the Cayenne and Panamera E-Hybrids. The Cayenne E-Hybrid is just too big for me, and the new ones are too expensive for what you get (starting at close to $100k USD with no options is not proper for a base Cayenne PHEV). Porsche is shooting themselves in the foot with their crazy escalating MSRPs on new four-door vehicles.

Macan Hybrid with 26 kWh battery is more problematic than Cayenne - creativity rules and maybe I'm wrong - but I'd say more like 16 kWh would in the volume range for Macan - but we'll see…

Macan EV does a solid 280 miles - so I'm not sure how much more people need for a neighborhood run about…but I've been driving EV's for over a decade…

 

[whitex]

Macan EV does a solid 280 miles - so I'm not sure how much more people need for a neighborhood run about…but I've been driving EV's for over a decade…

I've read so many people complaining about EV range, how "range is king", and yet they don't all go buy Lucid Airs with massive range. Nor do we see most Cybertruck owner shelling out for the range extender for the additional 120 miles of range. Very few people actually need more than 200 miles of range, and a large portion of those will not need it once charging infrastructure gets better.

 

[daveo4EV]

Range doesn't matter on a daily basis - only when road tripping - and then it only matters if the charging is not reliable - reliable charging = no range problems.

 

[Fish Fingers]

I've read so many people complaining about EV range, how "range is king", and yet they don't all go buy Lucid Airs with massive range. Nor do we see most Cybertruck owner shelling out for the range extender for the additional 120 miles of range. Very few people actually need more than 200 miles of range, and a large portion of those will not need it once charging infrastructure gets better.

Very true.
I think it's a concern when people get their first EV, and then they get used to it.
And a lot of people are at that 'first EV?' junction in life.

I had my Taycan over 3 years and did 23k miles in it.
In that time I never once needed to charge it away from home.

I did charge in the wild on 3 occasions:
Once to try out DC charging.
Once when a brand new EV station opened next to our office.
Once when the charge would have been about 10% arriving home.

That said, we do use the wife's PHEV for longer journeys, holidays etc.

However, that has about 40-50 miles electric range and I would say over 90% of all journeys made in that are battery only.

 

[Scandinavian]

Range doesn't matter on a daily basis - only when road tripping - and then it only matters if the charging is not reliable - reliable charging = no range problems.

Partly agree that this can give a good road trip.
we have excellent reliable charging stations along the route we frequently drive. The daily trips can vary from 700 km to 900 km per day. Fot us a stop every 2.5 or 3 hours is optimal from comfort point of view, coffee, meals, restrooms etc. But that is not possible range with motorway speeds of 130 km/h. and charging between 15 - 80%. It is not the actual charging time, but the overall stop time that counts. Getting off the motorway, finding the charger and starting charge process. Once connected it can be unbeatable in the Taycan, but the overhead is a lot of time.

So I still would love more range in the Taycan!

 

[whitex]

Very true.
I think it's a concern when people get their first EV, and then they get used to it.
And a lot of people are at that 'first EV?' junction in life.

I had my Taycan over 3 years and did 23k miles in it.
In that time I never once needed to charge it away from home.

I did charge in the wild on 3 occasions:
Once to try out DC charging.
Once when a brand new EV station opened next to our office.
Once when the charge would have been about 10% arriving home.

That said, we do use the wife's PHEV for longer journeys, holidays etc.

However, that has about 40-50 miles electric range and I would say over 90% of all journeys made in that are battery only.

I think range in EV's is similar to off-road capabilities in SUVs. Buyers claim they want it all, 4x4, armored plate under the car, self-inflating tires, transmissions which can drive for hours on a 30+ degree grade, snorkel air intake to drive through a meter deep river, external fuel tank on the roof, etc, etc. Most of those buyers never once in their life go off-roading. Heck, a lot of them think their cars have all those capabilities, even though those were options which their car does not have, because they haven't bothered to check, and dealerships are good into fooling people easy to fool, telling them all the things their car could do, but conveniently skipping over the fact that those capabilities require additional options which the car on the lot they are trying to sell does not have.

I also think plug-in hybrids contribute to range anxiety. I have a friend who will not buy an EV because he thinks he needs 600+ miles of range because "what if he needed to drive 600 miles without stopping". To my knowledge, he's never driven 600 miles without stopping, but it's a "what if" scenario he worries about. He ended up buying a plug-in hybrid because he enjoyed the improved torque response and acceleration. He ended up liking the electric-only drive on his car, so he even charges at home now. However, he now found a new reason not to buy EV, whenever he needs to run errands after work, his electric range runs out, so he tries charging at work, which is somewhat out of his way (same campus, different building I think) so he'd been frustrated multiple times that they EVSE's were all taken and he wasted time driving there and back. He says he is very glad that he could use gasoline on those days, and gives this as his latest reason not to buy EVs. I tried pointing out that if he had an EV, he wouldn't need to charge at work to run errands after work, because it would have much greater range than his plug-in hybrid.

I also mentioned EVs with 400-500 mile range, but since none of them will guarantee him 600 miles in any weather, they are not for him. Pointing out that even his ICE/hybrid car does not guarantee 600 miles in any weather, he still sticks to "but I could refuel in 5 minutes and keep on driving" - that is one thing which he is correct on, EV refueling does require a little more planning than ICE cars.

All that said, EVs are not for everyone. Different people have different usecases for their cars. Availability of charging at home is an important consideration, especially until the charging technology catches up with 5 minute fast charging, and widely available chargers.

 

[Tooney]

HANOVER, Dec 20 (Reuters) - Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), on Friday announced sweeping changes to its German operations, including more than 35,000 future job cuts and sharp capacity reductions in a last-gasp deal between Europe's top carmaker and unions to avert mass strikes.

Union leaders hailed the agreement as a "Christmas miracle" after 70 hours of gruelling negotiations, the longest in the company's 87-year history. There would be no immediate site closures or layoffs, and VW appeared to have backed away from demanding 10% wage cuts.
. . .
VW said the deal would allow savings of 15 billion euros ($15.6 billion) annually in the medium term and saw no significant impact on its 2024 guidance. While there were no immediate closures, VW said it was looking into options for its Dresden plant and repurposing the Osnabrueck site, including looking for a buyer. Some production would be shifted to Mexico.

Vehicle production would shut at the Dresden plant by the end of 2025. VW AG's staff will not get raises under a collective wage agreement over the next four years, while some bonuses will be scrapped or reduced.

Production at VW's Wolfsburg plant, its biggest, will be cut to two assembly lines from four.
. . .
The 35,000 future job cuts would represent around a quarter of VW's workforce and come in tandem with reducing the company's network of German plants by more than 700,000 vehicles.
. . .
Matthias Schmidt, a European auto markets analyst, said: "35K job cuts on a demographic curve up to 2030 is likely not enough and over a too longer time frame to address the current stagnation we are seeing across the European market."

He added: "I would say the unions can take more from this than VW but realistically because of the complicated structure of the company this was probably the best they could have realistically hoped for."

Top shareholder Porsche SE (PSHG_p.DE), welcomed Friday's deal as a "significant improvement in Volkswagen's competitiveness", adding it was now crucial to implement the cuts.
VW reaches union deal to cut 35,000 German jobs after gruelling talks

Edited: more at Factbox-The main points of Volkswagen's deal with unions on German sites and jobs

 

[daveo4EV]

HANOVER, Dec 20 (Reuters) - Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), opens new tab on Friday announced sweeping changes to its German operations, including more than 35,000 future job cuts and sharp capacity reductions in a last-gasp deal between Europe's top carmaker and unions to avert mass strikes.

Union leaders hailed the agreement as a "Christmas miracle" after 70 hours of gruelling negotiations, the longest in the company's 87-year history. There would be no immediate site closures or layoffs, and VW appeared to have backed away from demanding 10% wage cuts.
. . .
VW said the deal would allow savings of 15 billion euros ($15.6 billion) annually in the medium term and saw no significant impact on its 2024 guidance. While there were no immediate closures, VW said it was looking into options for its Dresden plant and repurposing the Osnabrueck site, including looking for a buyer. Some production would be shifted to Mexico.

Vehicle production would shut at the Dresden plant by the end of 2025. VW AG's staff will not get raises under a collective wage agreement over the next four years, while some bonuses will be scrapped or reduced.

Production at VW's Wolfsburg plant, its biggest, will be cut to two assembly lines from four.
. . .
The 35,000 future job cuts would represent around a quarter of VW's workforce and come in tandem with reducing the company's network of German plants by more than 700,000 vehicles.
. . .
Matthias Schmidt, a European auto markets analyst, said: "35K job cuts on a demographic curve up to 2030 is likely not enough and over a too longer time frame to address the current stagnation we are seeing across the European market."

He added: "I would say the unions can take more from this than VW but realistically because of the complicated structure of the company this was probably the best they could have realistically hoped for."

Top shareholder Porsche SE (PSHG_p.DE), opens new tab welcomed Friday's deal as a "significant improvement in Volkswagen's competitiveness", adding it was now crucial to implement the cuts.
VW reaches union deal to cut 35,000 German jobs after gruelling talks

Edited: more at Factbox-The main points of Volkswagen's deal with unions on German sites and jobs

everythings' fine - nothing to see here- move along move along - there will be no further pain - and our return to previous glory with ICE vehicle's is definitely the right call given the overwhelming trends going on world wide…and no our lack of software skills played no role in this debacle.

 

[Tooney]

everythings' fine - nothing to see here- move along move along - there will be no further pain - and our return to previous glory with ICE vehicle's is definitely the right call given the overwhelming trends going on world wide…and no our lack of software skills played no role in this debacle.

Frohe Weihnachten und ein gutes neues Jahr!

 

[Tooney]

Porsche Ponders Acquiring A Majority Stake At Bugatti Rimac
Porsche, which currently owns a 45 percent stake in Bugatti Rimac, is contemplating a majority takeover for increased control, according to the German financial portal Manager. Rimac’s founder and director, Mate Rimac, has confirmed that discussions are in progress. He mentioned that the company is in a strong position and expressed interest in raising their ownership stake.

By 2029, Bugatti’s cars are expected to be sold out, and the joint venture is projected to return to profitability in 2025. Should Porsche acquire a majority stake, approval from other investors would be necessary. Rimac’s shareholders include Hyundai, Goldman Sachs, SoftBank, and Invest Industrial. Analysts believe that a takeover could offer strategic advantages for Porsche, which is currently navigating numerous challenges.

Porsche sales have fallen for the third straight quarter. Sales of electric models have slumped, and the launch of the electric Macan has been delayed due to software issues. Development of the electric Cayman and Boxster models is also facing problems, which could delay their arrival on the market. Production of the electric Taycan has been reduced to a single shift due to low demand.
. . .
This could give Porsche an alternative to its announced electric super sports car Mission X (pictured). The concept of the car was presented in 2023, but it is not clear whether it will enter series production. Rimac already admitted this summer that the market environment has changed and that the richest people no longer want electric cars.

2021 press release: Bugatti-Rimac combines the genes of strong brands