Taycan vs Telsa M3P thoughts?

[Moonstone]

Really?
They are also both 4 door saloon cars with a good turn of speed.
There is a big difference in price but not everybody has price as their principle choice parameter (I never have).
The reason I didn’t consider the M3 for long was the plastic seat interior and touch controls. A poor choice of exterior colour was another bad side.

The Dacia Sandero is a small family hatchback that starts from £13,000. The Mercedes B Class is a small family hatchback that starts at £31,000. Both cars have internal combustion engines but it's unlikely that a person who is considering one, would also be in the market for the other. The only reason the same is true in the electric segment is because of the drivetrain. When all cars are electric. I doubt these comparisons will be quite so prevalent.

 

[f1eng]

The Dacia Sandero is a small family hatchback that starts from £13,000. The Mercedes B Class is a small family hatchback that starts at £31,000. Both cars have internal combustion engines but it's unlikely that a person who is considering one, would also be in the market for the other. The only reason the same is true in the electric segment is because of the drivetrain. When all cars are electric. I doubt these comparisons will be quite so prevalent.

I guess I am unusual in considering function ahead of price.
My last purchase 5 years ago was for a plug in hybrid car with capacity to carry my Labrador.
My final shortlist was Toyota Prius versus Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo.
I bought the Toyota. Price wasn’t the deciding factor but the saving was welcome.

 

[TDinDC]

It isn’t bullshit in Formula 1 racing and never has been.

Smooth is both faster and more consistent and was the whole time I was involved (1975 to 2009) whatever rules we had.

Any driver who wasn’t smooth was inconsistent and f*cked his tyres, mind you few drivers like that got as far as F1 and weren’t in it long if they did!

Hmmmm. Your snip takes my comment completely out of context. I said that you want your car to be smooth. If you are pushing a car, your inputs will not be "smooth" if you are keeping the car smooth. When you watch the inputs of F1 drivers, their inputs are not smooth. If your inputs are smooth (as so many amateur track drivers are told they should be), you will either be viciously slow or viciously in a wall somewhere. I was praising Porsche because they tend to give drivers much more control to keep the car smooth, which is harder if your throttle is like an on/off switch. In any event, not quite sure how my observation would elicit such a response, but throughout your history in F1, I doubt watching the drivers correct and make numerous rapid inputs would look smooth . . .

And while not F1, these videos shows inputs pretty well for people who I think were pushing their cars pretty hard:

In short, you have to drive the car by giving the inputs that are required, and those do not always look smooth. Driving instructors who focus on the inputs as opposed to the car are doing a disservice, and the old "smooth is fast" mantra in the amateur ranks is more often than not referring to the inputs rather than the car . . . and that is BS.

 

[whitex]

The Dacia Sandero is a small family hatchback that starts from £13,000. The Mercedes B Class is a small family hatchback that starts at £31,000. Both cars have internal combustion engines but it's unlikely that a person who is considering one, would also be in the market for the other. The only reason the same is true in the electric segment is because of the drivetrain. When all cars are electric. I doubt these comparisons will be quite so prevalent.

If that Dacia beat a 911 Turbo 0-60mph, people would be comparing it against a 911, and the Taycan, the fact that is costs $13K would not make people not compare the two. You somehow assume that price point eliminates comparisons.

A while back I was looking at an Audi A6, then realized a VW Passat W8 got me pretty much the same car, with more power, for less money, so I got that instead. If VW made an a car similar in size to the Taycan, which handled as well as the Taycan, had a hatch, but offered >1000hp, I'd be driving a VW - even better if it cost half the price or less. I wouldn't care if it costed $13K, I would have loved it actually. I honestly don't see much monetary value in the Porsche badge, especially that the service stories I hear from people are worse than my kids' Toyota service as far as price, loaner availability, parts lead time, etc. I buy my cars for how they drive, not for how expensive they are or what badge they have on the hood. I also like don't like to overpay for things.

 

[Moonstone]

If that Dacia beat a 911 Turbo 0-60mph, people would be comparing it against a 911, and the Taycan, the fact that is costs $13K would not make people not compare the two. You somehow assume that price point eliminates comparisons. A while back I was looking at an Audi A6, then realized a VW Passat W8 got me pretty much the same car, with more power, for much less money, so I got that instead. If VW made an a car similar in size to the Taycan, which handled as well as the Taycan, had a hatch, but offered >1000hp, I'd be driving a VW - even better if it cost half the price or less. I wouldn't care if it costed $13K, I would have loved it actually. I honestly don't see much monetary value in the Porsche badge, especially that the service stories I hear from people are worse than my kids' Toyota service as far as price, loaner availability, parts lead time, etc. I buy my cars for how they drive, not for how expensive they are or what badge they have on the hood.

The price point is actually a secondary consideration in my example. My point is that if a buyer is interested in paying more for a prestige brand, whether that's a car, a handbag or anything else, it's unlikely that they'll purchase a cheap brand instead.

I don't think anyone can argue that Tesla is on the same page as Porsche in that sense. As standalone products they have as much in common as the Dacia and the Mercedes. In terms of how Porsche market and position themselves, the bulk of their target market has a different opinion.

 

[whitex]

The price point is actually a secondary consideration in my example. My point is that if a buyer is interested in paying more for a prestige brand, whether that's a car, a handbag or anything else, it's unlikely that they'll purchase a cheap brand instead.

I don't think anyone can argue that Tesla is on the same page as Porsche in that sense. As standalone products they have as much in common as the Dacia and the Mercedes. In terms of how Porsche market and position themselves, the bulk of their target market has a different opinion.

You might start with a minimum of how much you must spend on the car, but others, like me, look for what the car can deliver in terms of capabilities and performance, and then I look how to spend the least money to get that. So while you might not compare a $13K car to a $31K car, if they offer the same capabilities, handling, performance, I would absolutely compare them. Full disclosure, I did jump from Porsche+Toyota, to VW (consolidated a 911C4 and Toyota 4Runner into a VW Passat W8 once I started a family, actually traded the 911 for 2 Passats one for me and one for my wife), to a few Lexuses, to a few Teslas, back to Porsche. Enjoyed every car for what I needed it for at the time. I honestly don't know what my next car will be, likely a Porsche, if they have a good offering for what I want, at a competitive price, but will jump brands no problem if there is a better value car for my needs at that time.

 

[Moonstone]

You might start with a minimum of how much you must spend on the car, but others, like me, look for what the car can deliver in terms of capabilities and performance, and then I look how to spend the least money to get that. So while you might not compare a $13K car to a $31K car, if they offer the same capabilities, handling, performance, I would absolutely compare them. Full disclosure, I did jump from Porsche+Toyota, to VW (consolidated a 911C4 and Toyota 4Runner into a VW Passat W8 once I started a family, actually traded the 911 for 2 Passats one for me and one for my wife), to a few Lexuses, to a few Teslas, back to Porsche. Enjoyed every car for what I needed it for at the time. I honestly don't know what my next car will be, likely a Porsche, if they have a good offering for what I want, at a competitive price, but will jump brands no problem if there is a better value car for my needs at that time.

I don't actually start with a minimum and I'm personally not a brand snob. I'm just highlighting that other than the drive-train these car's are at different price points, different build quality, different branding and different target demographics. If the Tesla was an ICE equipped car, no one would be having a Model 3 vs Taycan debate. That's the only point I'm making.

 

[whitex]

I don't actually start with a minimum and I'm personally not a brand snob. I'm just highlighting that other than the drive-train these car's are at different price points, different build quality, different branding and different target demographics. If the Tesla was an ICE equipped car, no one would be having a Model 3 vs Taycan debate. That's the only point I'm making.

I cross shopped Model S Plaid, Taycan Turbo, eTron GT RS, EQS AMG, Lucid Air Saphire. My wife cross shopped a Model S LR, F150 Lightening, EQS sedan and SUV, eTron SUV, Rivian R1T and R1S. We both drove Model S for years. Different people have different needs, even from the same cars, and will cross shop different cars for their next one. In the end, I think always boils down to what you need, and yes, a status symbol requiring a minimum price does qualify as a need for some. I can totally see people cross shopping a M3P with a Taycan, even if Taycan will cost 2x or more (technically it can cost lest than 2x).

 

[f1eng]

Hmmmm. Your snip takes my comment completely out of context. I said that you want your car to be smooth. If you are pushing a car, your inputs will not be "smooth" if you are keeping the car smooth. When you watch the inputs of F1 drivers, their inputs are not smooth. If your inputs are smooth (as so many amateur track drivers are told they should be), you will either be viciously slow or viciously in a wall somewhere. I was praising Porsche because they tend to give drivers much more control to keep the car smooth, which is harder if your throttle is like an on/off switch. In any event, not quite sure how my observation would elicit such a response, but throughout your history in F1, I doubt watching the drivers correct and make numerous rapid inputs would look smooth . . .

And while not F1, these videos shows inputs pretty well for people who I think were pushing their cars pretty hard:

In short, you have to drive the car by giving the inputs that are required, and those do not always look smooth. Driving instructors who focus on the inputs as opposed to the car are doing a disservice, and the old "smooth is fast" mantra in the amateur ranks is more often than not referring to the inputs rather than the car . . . and that is BS.

I am directly quoting my old mate Jackie Stewart and any data I have seen on driver inputs only shows lots of correction when the car isn’t setup right.

There do seem to be two throttle “styles”, Keke Rosberg (and I’m told Senna though I never worked with him) use it like a switch trying full throttle on and off quickly until the car could take it, whereas Piquet and Prost used very smooth throttle (and steering) applications.

Edit,
I think Senna at Monaco is being pretty smooth.
The others are (IMO) poor handling road cars so don’t surprise me.

 

[TDinDC]

I am directly quoting my old mate Jackie Stewart and any data I have seen on driver inputs only shows lots of correction when the car isn’t setup right.

There do seem to be two throttle “styles”, Keke Rosberg (and I’m told Senna though I never worked with him) use it like a switch trying full throttle on and off quickly until the car could take it, whereas Piquet and Prost used very smooth throttle (and steering) applications.

I am sure there are many preferences. But your response seems like you still think I am talking about the end results of the driver's talents. Of course the car should be smooth. Of course it's easier to drive a car that is well set up, and less corrections would be needed. But if you are "smooth" on your inputs when they are needed, you are going to be late, and late inputs if and when an input is needed equals, at best, a car that is not smooth and at worst, a wall.

But I do think the artificial jumpy throttle does not make it easier for anyone, no matter your preference, to drive smoothly.

 

[f1eng]

The Dacia Sandero is a small family hatchback that starts from £13,000. The Mercedes B Class is a small family hatchback that starts at £31,000. Both cars have internal combustion engines but it's unlikely that a person who is considering one, would also be in the market for the other. The only reason the same is true in the electric segment is because of the drivetrain. When all cars are electric. I doubt these comparisons will be quite so prevalent.

Well if I couldn’t afford the Merc I would maybe only consider the Dacia, but since I could, based on my normal approach, I would consider both against my important requirements.
The Toyota Prius suited my important requirements better than the Panamera otherwise I would have bought the Porsche.

 

[Moonstone]

Well if I couldn’t afford the Merc I would maybe only consider the Dacia, but since I could, based on my normal approach, I would consider both against my important requirements.
The Toyota Prius suited my important requirements better than the Panamera otherwise I would have bought the Porsche.

Yeah but if you could only have one car in your household, would it be the Prius or the Panamera...?

 

[Needsdecaf]

Can always tell people who have never owned or lived with a Tesla for a significant period of time...

OP...I owned a Model 3 for 4 years (LR for 2, Performance for 2) which I sold in December last year. I understand your dilemma as I'm considering giving up my 997 Turbo S for a Taycan. I get the fear of missing the "excitement" of the ICE and no longer having it as an option.

I'm afraid there's no good answer; only you can decide on whether you'll be comfortable with that. I my case, though, I've gotten enough Taycan seat time to know that it's a fantastic performing large sedan and for my use case, will be more than enough excitement on a daily basis.

 

[f1eng]

I am sure there are many preferences. But your response seems like you still think I am talking about the end results of the driver's talents. Of course the car should be smooth. Of course it's easier to drive a car that is well set up, and less corrections would be needed. But if you are "smooth" on your inputs when they are needed, you are going to be late, and late inputs if and when an input is needed equals, at best, a car that is not smooth and at worst, a wall.

But I do think the artificial jumpy throttle does not make it easier for anyone, no matter your preference, to drive smoothly.

Whatever, but I will still take Jackie, Michael Schumacher, Alan Jones, Nelson Piquet, Carlos Reutemann, Alain Prost, Jacques Lafitte amongst others as probably better and more knowledgeable drivers than the ones you know, I’m afraid.

 

[f1eng]

Yeah but if you could only have one car in your household, would it be the Prius or the Panamera...?

If I could only have one it would have to be the Prius, the others are too compromised for general use.
I am even still using the Prius as much as the Taycan.