"Porsche Sales Are Falling. Here's Why" - Article

[Der-Schwabe]

getting weary of the number of click-bait articles that are constantly linked here.

these idiots are seldom experts on what they babble about, often recycling the sources, hell half feel like they are AI bots writing them.

Further, they get paid for clicks, so of course they love dramatic headlines.

I personally see the situation as quite simple, firm believe in occams razor:
1. this and multiple industries are finally waking up to a normalized business environment post-pandemic, and that no, the demand they saw from all the free money and bored out of skulls people won't be a BAU expectation going forward

2. EVs are a transition product and despite the desire of certain worldwide economies to push otherwise, most consumers only buy things when they are good enough, and cheap. That is not the buyers here who likely have disposable income higher than 99% of the world's population.

So yeah, the legacy and new automakers will need to adjust. And what will happen? most of the new will die or be absorbed by the legacy. the legacy makers that don't figure it out will be consolidated. I tend to think that porsche/vw/audi will be one that figures it out, but probably not without some pain in the process.

Hear, hear...and btw, the often lauded Chinese manufacturers have issue themselves as this article shows:

Xiaomi SU7 Owners Find It’s Not Meant For Track Use After Two Brake Failures Lead To Crashes

"
- Xiaomi’s SU7 Max electric car has a braking problem on race tracks.
- Video evidence shows two examples of the brakes failing before a big crash.
- It turns out that the SU7 Max has smaller brake pads than those found on a Honda CR-V.
"

 

[Spyerx]

Hear, hear...and btw, the often lauded Chinese manufacturers have issue themselves as this article shows:

Xiaomi SU7 Owners Find It’s Not Meant For Track Use After Two Brake Failures Lead To Crashes

"
- Xiaomi’s SU7 Max electric car has a braking problem on race tracks.
- Video evidence shows two examples of the brakes failing before a big crash.
- It turns out that the SU7 Max has smaller brake pads than those found on a Honda CR-V.
"

But hey they have great tech and are cheap!

 

[chun]

But hey they have great tech and are cheap!

What's Porsche excuse for brakes failure leading to accidents? New indie company?

I also heard from a kid, that putting bigger brakes is slightly easier than doing good tech

But hey, it's good that we are comparing Porsche with a company that has been making cars for, checks notes, 8 months Clearly Xiaomi is doing something right, eh?

 

[Spyerx]

What's Porsche excuse for brakes failure leading to accidents? New indie company?

I also heard from a kid, that putting bigger brakes is slightly easier than doing good tech

But hey, it's good that we are comparing Porsche with a company that has been making cars for, checks notes, 8 months Clearly Xiaomi is doing something right, eh?

Please.

Assume you're talking about the hose issue they've addressed.

I've over 25k track miles on various Porsche cars and not a single brake failure. And this is with factory calipers and braking systems and sometimes aftermarket pads.

Sorry but it's not even in the same conversation as to the quality of the brakes on Porsches compared to most other makes.

 

[chun]

Please.

Assume you're talking about the hose issue they've addressed.

I've over 25k track miles on various Porsche cars and not a single brake failure. And this is with factory calipers and braking systems and sometimes aftermarket pads.

Sorry but it's not even in the same conversation as to the quality of the brakes on Porsches compared to most other makes.

No, I am talking about the reports of brakes stoping to work in the middle of the autobahn, in the middle of intersections, and the like. I am talking about that.

Several have even been on this forum.

What are the excuses for them?

Sorry, but based on NHTSA, and plenty of user reports, it's not what you describe.

And since you named yourself the authority in Porsche brakes, what's the excuse for them failing? Small production number? They have been making cars for a few weeks? Is it this model that is special?

Please...

And don't start with: "small number of cases" There are far more cases of taycans have this issue than Xiaomi cars having this issue

Also, if you watch the full video on the Xiaomi crashing on the track, you can see the brakes glowing, overheating, and the wheels being painted black by brake dust. Driving the car until it's absolute braking points, and not knowing the limits of your brakes does not mean the brakes are faulty.

The fact of the matter is that Taycan is a very unreliable car Statistics prove it.
Fact of the matter is that Porsche EV are not considered luxury anymore in key markets, as luxury now means more than just leather interior.
Fact of the matter is that Porsche's technology is falling behind, but the price is not.

So yes, sales are down, their market cap is down, and their outlook on sales and profit are also down.

 

[ZenicaNC]

This is a general problem?

Sounds like this guy wants to drive a go-kart.
No tech
No electric assist
No 4-wheel steering

He didn't say but I suspect he'd skip ABS, adjustable suspension or any suspension system or any of the other nannies manufacturers offer.

Personally, I like my tech and I like them in cars that aren't boats on wheels.

Can't say I agreed with much he had to say.

 

[D00notD00d]

I do not have detailed insight into the UK grid and its operations, but several sources have debunked the notion that the Grid would not cope. It state that there is enough energy available. The issue as pointed out that there is a problem to get the energy to where different interests want to have it. But these stumbling blocks seem also to have been overcome. Far too easy to just blame the Grid.

Enough energy is available currently.
Enough energy is not available at all of the places it is required to meet future demand.
2 separate problems are cited:
(1) Grid connectivity isn’t available at the required locations to satisfy new renewable energy sites. I’m referencing Greg Jackson, CEO of Octopus, the UK’s largest energy supplier. He has described the National Grid as no longer fit for purpose. In one example a grid connection date of 2036 has been quoted for a new Solar site. He has proposed implementing his own grid.
(2) Sufficient capacity isn’t available to meet Motorway Service area demand. I’m referencing CEOs for the operators of those sites, and motoring organisations. Government targeted every motorway service area to have at least 6 rapid or ultra rapid chargers by the end of 2023. Just six! But at the end of 2023 only 40% of Motorway Service Areas had 6 or more rapid chargers.

I do not agree at all with you that manufacturers can not be fined for not selling enough EV’s. If the legislation states they have to sell a certain portion of EV’s they need to provide products tht meet the demand of the public. If they can’t do that they will have to sell less ICE cars to get the ratio correct. So it is just a question on where they want to take the losses?

UK car production has already fallen from 1.7m in 2016 to 700k this year, affecting tax revenues and jobs.
Consumers cannot be compelled to buy EVs. 44% of UK households are unable to charge at home. EV ownership is only viable if you can regularly take advantage of cheap overnight charging rates.
If they are unable to sell enough EVs to comply with the legislation, manufacturers can either affect production, affect prices, or bizarrely, buy credits from a compliant manufacturer. Making a loss isnt sustainable.

Today Ford announced UK job and production cuts.
Stellantis, who make Opel, Vauxhall and Citroen vans, have been been threatening all year to quit the UK. Electric commercial vans are really only compatible with local journeys
Nissan has announced job cuts but has not yet said which countries will be affected. Nissan does not currently produce any EVs in the UK.
UK manufacturers are all currently pleading with government to make changes to law and/or offer subsidies to boost sales.
Unions are doing the same to protect jobs.

 

[D00notD00d]

Sounds like this guy wants to drive a go-kart.
No tech
No electric assist
No 4-wheel steering

He didn't say but I suspect he'd skip ABS, adjustable suspension or any suspension system or any of the other nannies manufacturers offer.

Personally, I like my tech and I like them in cars that aren't boats on wheels.

Can't say I agreed with much he had to say.

Are you certain he said all that?
He’s definitely a fan of 4WS. I recall him saying once experienced, you’ll never want to be without it.
But he is definitely not a fan of Active Lane Assist requiring multiple actions to turn it off each trip - compulsory from 2024. Ok on a nice straight and wide road, but on a fast UK country road, or in road works, it is dangerous. You’re forever fighting for control of the steering.

 

[Fish Fingers]

Enough energy is available currently.
Enough energy is not available at all of the places it is required to meet future demand.
2 separate problems are cited:
(1) Grid connectivity isn’t available at the required locations to satisfy new renewable energy sites. I’m referencing Greg Jackson, CEO of Octopus, the UK’s largest energy supplier. He has described the National Grid as no longer fit for purpose. In one example a grid connection date of 2036 has been quoted for a new Solar site. He has proposed implementing his own grid.
(2) Sufficient capacity isn’t available to meet Motorway Service area demand. I’m referencing CEOs for the operators of those sites, and motoring organisations. Government targeted every motorway service area to have at least 6 rapid or ultra rapid chargers by the end of 2023. Just six! But at the end of 2023 only 40% of Motorway Service Areas had 6 or more rapid chargers.



UK car production has already fallen from 1.7m in 2016 to 700k this year, affecting tax revenues and jobs.
Consumers cannot be compelled to buy EVs. 44% of UK households are unable to charge at home. EV ownership is only viable if you can regularly take advantage of cheap overnight charging rates.
If they are unable to sell enough EVs to comply with the legislation, manufacturers can either affect production, affect prices, or bizarrely, buy credits from a compliant manufacturer. Making a loss isnt sustainable.

Today Ford announced UK job and production cuts.
Stellantis, who make Opel, Vauxhall and Citroen vans, have been been threatening all year to quit the UK. Electric commercial vans are really only compatible with local journeys
Nissan has announced job cuts but has not yet said which countries will be affected. Nissan does not currently produce any EVs in the UK.
UK manufacturers are all currently pleading with government to make changes to law and/or offer subsidies to boost sales.
Unions are doing the same to protect jobs.

I wonder how the current negotiations between Govt and manufacturers regarding the 22% zero emissions target is going to pan out?

It seems very late in the day to be discussing it in late November.

So will the rules be tweaked?

Or will the Govt actually fine the manufacturers £15k per excess ICE vehicle (how much would that be out of interest?). Manufacturers are trying - every car advert on TV is for EVs and things like zero/low interest rates available.

But meanwhile successive Govts chop and change the 2030/2035 zero emission date dependant on which way the wind is blowing.
Designing and building cars is not a short term project.

And what do Govt expect when they offer no incentives to private UK buyers.....even worse we actually start paying road tax next April on EVs so it's being disincentivised.

I watch with interest.

 

[D00notD00d]

Harry again gives us a perfect example of his bias in his latest car vid. He literally took the worst thing he could have done with this car - tow with it and did it. All because he "noticed it had a tow hook". Instead of saying that would be an impractical choice for an EV and perhaps to avoid specifying it (or maybe suggesting it is more useful for a bike rack), he decided to tow with the Macan and spend his time criticising how impractical that is. Which it is given the current EV space/state of affairs. This isn't a defence of towing with EV's, but it's common knowledge in the car industry that it's very impractical at the moment

Porsche Macan electric review plus why towing with an EV is not good news..

So yes, again I like Harry because he has some lovely old cars and does some things that some people can only dream off (personal chats to Horacio Pagani whilst on a stunning road trip to commemorate Lamborghini!), he is inherently bias in his 'reviews'.

You'll note his bias the other way when he didn't level very much criticism at the latest Maserati Granturismo, despite the cars many faults and very obvious ridiculous pricing (including a £30k paint option!)

To be fair he didn’t spend much time criticising the Macan EV towing capability affect on range. And Porsche sell the Macan EV tow hook for up to 2 tons as well as for bike racks.
But he did not mention that an ICE car towing a trailer would also increase consumption by 33-50%. The Macan EV has an aerodynamic factor of 0.25, necessary for best range. Attaching a brick shape behind it negates that. Attaching a brick to his already brick shaped LR Defender has less effect on fuel consumption.
Some of what he says is spot on. Some of what he says is revenue generating clickbait. Some of what he says is spot on revenue generating clickbait.

 

[Scandinavian]

UK car production has already fallen from 1.7m in 2016 to 700k this year, affecting tax revenues and jobs.

That has nothing to do with EV’s! That is a more fundamental problem for the UK car industry.

Look at Aston Martin. They build some lovely cars, but have only made a profit a very small number of years in their over 100 year history. Can’t blame the government for that

Ans I guess that the 22% rule not only applies to UK built cars, but all.

 

[D00notD00d]

The official Porsche UK site has no new in stock, demo or used Macan EVs advertised for sale.
The autotrader.co.uk site has 37 dealer adverts, some saying multiple others are also available for immediate delivery.

The official Porsche UK site has 295 new in stock, demo or used Taycan J2s advertised for sale. That’s over £30m of depreciating and interest bearing capital investment.

For balance, I don’t know how many Macan EVs and Taycan J2s have been sold.

 

[D00notD00d]

That has nothing to do with EV’s! That is a more fundamental problem for the UK car industry.

Look at Aston Martin. They build some lovely cars, but have only made a profit a very small number of years in their over 100 year history. Can’t blame the government for that

Ans I guess that the 22% rule not only applies to UK built cars, but all.

The drop in UK manufacturing has something to do with EVs, but only in the last few years.
Germany’s car production has fallen by about one third since 2016. Again, not all due to EVs.
Governments bear some responsibility for decreased tax revenues, but not all.
None of this is all about EVs, there’s multiple causes.
But government EV and safety legislation is certainly a factor. And governments bear all of the responsibility for the effects of that, good and bad.

 

[ze_shark]

So nice theory, but completely unsupported by facts. Similar thing goes for EV demand softening - true, but so is ICE car demand. In 2024 in the US there is an expectation that 1 million less cars will be sold by end of this year as compared to 2023. I guarantee not all of those are EVs (actually most of them are not).

In the EU, BEV regs have fallen 4.9% Oct YTD, with BEV marketshare falling to 13.2% from 14% last year.

In the US, Q3 EV share was 8.9% compared to 7.8% in Q3'23.

 

[whitex]

In the EU, BEV regs have fallen 4.9% Oct YTD

How did the ICE car registrations do for the same time period?