[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[daveo4EV]

Indeed.
EVs are daily drivers.
Too heavy for racing, and road targeted versions not got the thermal capacity.

for the 8 or fewer laps the taycan Turbo was able to do it's impressive for a 4 door sedan at 5,100 lbs - chasing down 911 GT3's uphill between turns 5 and entrance to the cork screw (turn 8A/8B) was a hoot - several 911 GT3 drivers came to inspect my vehicle and me as a driver after session - they were "impressed" with it behind them, passing them, and then in front of them and couldn't believe it had 4 doors…

I was below 50% battery @ 132F battery temp with the cooling system running full bore on a 68F day at laguna seca - the Taycan needed about 30 min "resting" in the pit garages after the abbreviated session - and then it was just as good for the 2nd session - but lacking fast charging at Laguna Seca meant due to the depleted battery I could stay out even less time for the 2nd session - coming in at around 15% battery to have enough capacity to drive off site to local fast chargers…

I love my EV's but also know what they are, and are not, good for.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...d-on-driving-lap-data-impressions-added.2923/

the order in which you will "run out" of capacity on Taycan (and other EV's is as follows)

• first you will run out of battery thermal capacity
• second you will run out of tires (given the weight your street tires are overheated and greasy after about 8-10 minutes)
• third you will run out of actual "fuel" battery capacity
• forth (which you're never reach because you're out of fuel) you will run out of brakes

all of the above will happen in 12-15 min or less of full pace track driving…if you insist on staying out beyond the 12-15 min point your consumption is so high you don't have enough battery capacity to run for much more than 20-25 minutes of reduced pace

 

[whitex]

the Taycan has about enough thermal capacity/cooling for setting lap times @ the ring - which includes one out lap -and at least one "hot" lap…this is one of the reasons PCCB's are pointless on this vehicle it doesn't have enough stamina for high performance driving to need high thermal capacity brakes

In my 2015 Model S P85DL, which did not have enough stamina for repeated laps, I was still able to experience brake fade (along with power limits due to battery temps) when doing some spirited driving through some mountains terrain. While power limit was a little annoying (though unlike Taycan clearly shown on the car's power meter on the instrument cluster), the brake fade was a bit concerning. Perhaps PSCBs would do better in such a scenario. I've yet to take my Taycan through mountain ranges, except on the first drive from the dealer, which I had fun with, but it was winter (less traction, better battery cooling) as well as it was a brand new car to me, so I didn't push it as hard as I would today. Taycan also regens much harder, which might help the brakes, but hurt battery temps.

 

[whitex]

I was below 50% battery @ 132F battery temp with the cooling system running full bore on a 68F day at laguna seca - the Taycan needed about 30 min "resting" in the pit garages after the abbreviated session

Perhaps EV equivalent of NOS (Nitrous Oxide System) will be LNS (Liquid Nitrogen System).

 

[daveo4EV]

In my 2015 Model S P85DL, which did not have enough stamina for repeated laps, I was still able to experience brake fade (along with power limits due to battery temps) when doing some spirited driving through some mountains terrain. While power limit was a little annoying (though unlike Taycan clearly shown on the car's power meter on the instrument cluster), the brake fade was a bit concerning. Perhaps PSCBs would do better in such a scenario. I've yet to take my Taycan through mountain ranges, except on the first drive from the dealer, which I had fun with, but it was winter (less traction, better battery cooling) as well as it was a brand new car to me, so I didn't push it as hard as I would today. Taycan also regens much harder, which might help the brakes, but hurt battery temps.

Porsche's brakes are definitively better than Tesla brakes -no question - my Model S could barely do single laps before having brake fade issues

The Taycan's brakes are world class and ICE quality - I have no doubt they can handle repeated lapping - the point is Porsche quality brakes are beyond the potential of typical EV drive train stamina…I also surmise to some extent this "over design" hampers range because there is accommodations for the brakes that are un-necessary and causing range loss…

My 2018 Model 3 Performance factory brake pads were shredded in 4 laps @ thunderhill - less than 15 miles of track - and the factory pads were down to the metal backing plates and scored the rotors - I've never had worse factory brakes on an autombile - but they are well designed/matched for the 99.9% use case of a daily EV w/heavy regeneration…but Tesla's brakes are notoriously bad for track duty…

I have zero issues with the brakes on the Taycan - they will not be the part that limits your track use.

 

[Fish Fingers]

Just jumping back with the original thread theme......I really don't think this is s good idea from VW (and other manufacturers).

Paying a monthly subscription to unlock some extra power.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volks...gen-locks-horsepower-behind-paid-subscription

I know it has been / is being done in one form or another (performance packs, etc), but personally I think the monthly subscription is just cheap penny pinching.

Makes me think the next thing will be showing 3rd party adverts on the screen when you get in the car, or pay to have them removed.

 

[whitex]

I know it has been / is being done in one form or another (performance packs, etc), but personally I think the monthly subscription is just cheap penny pinching.

How is that different than leasing a feature, the same as you lease a car? Is it the fact that you can start and stop this feature lease at any time bother you, and even if the previous owner chose not to pay for the feature, the next one can?

 

[whitex]

Makes me think the next thing will be showing 3rd party adverts on the screen when you get in the car, or pay to have them removed.

I think that less likely, however you as the owner might have a choice to enable some feature in exchange for watching ads. Let's look at an example. Taycan ST GTS is $156K, CT Turbo S is $220K. What's wrong with someone buying a GTS and paying $1,000 per month to get Turbo S performance only for months they want to use it, or pay $750 a month plus watch ads for the same performance? As long as you have a choice, and can spend the extra $66K up front, or pay monthly, or pay less monthly but watch ads, or not pay any of it and not watch any ads and have "just" GTS performance, what is wrong with a company offering this feature? I'm genuinely curious by the way, not trying to antagonize people, any time I read people against a company offering an option to pay for features monthly instead of one time fee, I just don't get it. I like options, the more options I have the better choice I can make. For example I leased very few cars, I bought most of them instead, but I always looked at numbers to see which option suits me better.

 

[Fish Fingers]

My personal view is that VAG (and others) will be seen as charging you extra for something that is already there.

I imagine the Chinese will throw everything in for free - at a much lower cost.

They should be thinking very long and hard about price and value in the UK market (where Chinese cars are coming thick and fast).

 

[whitex]

My personal view is that VAG (and others) will be seen as charging you extra for something that is already there.

If you buy a PlayStation4 or an iPhone, do you expect all software for it to be free? After all, all the hardware capabilities are there for all apps in the app store, so you're really just paying for bits which cost like $0.01 to transfer into your device. Taycan GTS and Turbo S have the same hardware, the $66K difference is software.

This reminds me of when Tesla released the Model 3 LR, which originally came with Model 3 Performance motors and inverters but locked with software. A large group of customers revolted over "you're charging me extra for something already in the car". So Tesla went back and designed crappier motors with thinner wires for Model 3 LR, which would burn if you tried running Model 3 Performance power through them. This somehow made people feel better, to get a shittier hardware for the same money. I don't get it. I bought a Model S60D which actually had a 75kWh battery in it, software locked to 60kW max. Again, people threw fits over this so Tesla designed an actual 70kWh battery and sold it as such. Again, I don't get it. With S60D I was able to charge to 100% because it wasn't really 100% SOC, it was 60kWh out of 75kWh (so 80%) since I knew the battery was larger - it charges faster towards the "100% SOC" too. All those outraged customers just shot themselves in the foot.

Your profile says you have a RWD. So let me ask you, for the exact same price, would you rather buy an actual RWD, or would you choose a software locked Turbo GT, with an option to upgrade to higher performance for a price at later time, or even just for a short time? For real, what would you choose for the exact same price? What do you think would have a higher resale value, a RWD, or a GT software locked to RWD performance?

 

[tigerbalm]

Indeed.
EVs are daily drivers.
Too heavy for racing, and road targeted versions not got the thermal capacity.

Which does make you wonder about the Taycan GT focus and existence.

 

[tigerbalm]

Taycan GTS and Turbo S have the same hardware, the $66K difference is software.

It is my understanding that the Turbo S has a 600A front inverter where as the Turbo and lower (including the GTS) has a 300A front inverter.

 

[tigerbalm]

Perhaps EV equivalent of NOS (Nitrous Oxide System) will be LNS (Liquid Nitrogen System).

If Porsche could market "performance electrons" in their charging stations they'd try that!

 

[f1eng]

Taycan GTS and Turbo S have the same hardware, the $66K difference is software.

No it is not. Not here anyway.
The biggest difference is in the standard equipment many of the most expensive options are standard on Turbo S and the J1 turbo S is unique in having a 600A front inverter.
I don't need the performance anyway, my CT4S has all the overtaking capacity I have so far needed.

 

[whitex]

If Porsche could market "performance electrons" in their charging stations they'd try that!

They already tried, telling people how they should only be using Porsche EVSEs or lose warranty. It's probably still in the manual, and perpetuated by some dealers too.

 

[whitex]

It is my understanding that the Turbo S has a 600A front inverter where as the Turbo and lower (including the GTS) has a 300A front inverter.

No it is not. Not here anyway.
The biggest difference is in the standard equipment many of the most expensive options are standard on Turbo S and the J1 turbo S is unique in having a 600A front inverter.

For J1.1 that is definitely true. For the currently selling model J1.2, I've read that only the Turbo GT has unique hardware.

I used this as an example of essentially software locked features. Other example which applies to J1.1 would be CT4 and CT4S, or GTS and Turbo. Folks already buy power tuning upgrades for those cars, paying between $2,000 and $6,000 (when they first came out they were more pricey). Would those same people have a big problem if they were offered a lease option on those upgrades, in addition to the purchase option, or even be offered a rent by month option?