[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[f1eng]

If only someone would invent a mode of travel to allow you to make a trip somewhere where you could test drive a Lucid, maybe even visit your friend who works there and let him show you what the car can do on their test track.

Certainly won't be visiting the USA at the moment!

 

[whitex]

Certainly won't be visiting the USA at the moment!

Don't worry, Trump hard-on is not against the Brits, at least at the moment, especially since they are no loner a part of the EU. Unless of course you've personally pissed him off at any time in the past. Did any team you worked on ever beat any Trump owned racing teams in any races?

 

[f1eng]

Don't worry, Trump hard-on is not against the Brits, at least at the moment, especially since they are no loner a part of the EU. Unless of course you've personally pissed him off at any time in the past. Did any team you worked on ever beat any Trump owned racing teams in any races?

AFAIK Trump has never been involved in motor sport.

It is a matter of due process really and so nobody can be sure what may happen to them.

I have visited the US probably close to 100 times for work, holiday and visiting friends but won't come again.

 

[whitex]

AFAIK Trump has never been involved in motor sport.

Not directly Trump, but his election PAC sponsored, so he might take it personally (as he does many things)

It is a matter of due process really and so nobody can be sure what may happen to them.

I have visited the US probably close to 100 times for work, holiday and visiting friends but won't come again.

You are not wrong here. The stuff he's managed to pull off in his second term is frightening. I can't blame you being risk averse in the current situation.

 

[Tooney]

‘The Most Humbling Thing I’ve Ever Seen’: Ford CEO On China’s Car Industry

Ford CEO Jim Farley said Chinese cars have "far superior" technology, lower costs and great quality.
As Farley tells it, Chinese firms have taken the in-vehicle digital experience up several notches, something our staff has noticed during visits to the country too. In the U.S., “technology” in most cars amounts to a media player, a navigation system and maybe some smart cruise control. China has pushed the envelope far beyond that.

“Huawei and Xiaomi are in every car,” Farley said, referring to two of China’s tech giants. “You get in, you don’t have to pair your phone. Automatically, your whole digital life is mirrored in the car. You have an AI companion that you can talk to … All the automatic payment is already there. You can buy movie tickets. It has facial recognition so it knows who’s in which seat and which media you like.”

“And even beyond that, their cost, their quality of their vehicles is far superior to what I see in the West,” Farley continued. “We are in a global competition with China, and it’s not just EVs. And if we lose this we do not have a future at Ford.”

What’s perhaps even more worrisome to carmakers trying to compete with Chinese offerings in markets around the world: The cars may be cheap, but they don’t feel like it.

“And even beyond that, their cost, their quality of their vehicles is far superior to what I see in the West,” Farley continued. “We are in a global competition with China, and it’s not just EVs. And if we lose this we do not have a future at Ford.”

 

[daveo4EV]

one of the most powerful questions I learned later in my career (as a computer software engineer/manage/architect)

"What are you optmizing for?"

many times decisions are driven by unspoken optimization goals…forcing people to articulate what they optimizing for sometimes helps everyone realize where they are coming from, where they are going, and perhaps make a change in the outcome if everyone can agree on a different goal to optimize for

Porsche has probably decided what it's optimizing for (some conscious and a whole more unconscious) - but the true nature and goals of those optimizations will not escape the confines of the Porsche corp. information systems…and the correct thing to optimize for is not at all clear since it requires peering into the future and making guesses about how things will develop and evolve…

it's even reasonable for us to debate what they "should" optimize for…and I love the passion and depth of perspective in this space from customers/owners that we all are…

but I think it's clear they are not "optmizing" for being the best "EV choice" - they are choosing to optimize for other outcomes where they feel they can be successful…eFuel, exhaust note, ICE sales for mechanical superiority - playing to their historic and formidable strengths.

this will align with some customers, and not others…

they are in a pickle and what they optimize for in the next weeks, months, and years, decades will determine the fate of the company…

I feel they are on a trajectory that may lead them ultimately down the wrong path but the dead end natuire of that path won't be clear to them until it's to late.

but again I'm just some guy on the internet that has not ever run a successful car company - I do try and remember that occasionally -

but I'd give a lot of things to be a fly on the wall and really understand what they are doing, why they are doing it, and how they really really think this is going to play out…inflection points like this and how it plays out is always fascinating - OMG to be "in the room" on some of this stuff - would simply be amazing.

 

[snstevens]

one of the most powerful questions I learned later in my career (as a computer software engineer/manage/architect)

"What are you optmizing for?"

many times decisions are driven by unspoken optimization goals…forcing people to articulate what they optimizing for sometimes helps everyone realize where they are coming from, where they are going, and perhaps make a change in the outcome if everyone can agree on a different goal to optimize for

Porsche has probably decided what it's optimizing for (some conscious and a whole more unconscious) - but the true nature and goals of those optimizations will not escape the confines of the Porsche corp. information systems…and the correct thing to optimize for is not at all clear since it requires peering into the future and making guesses about how things will develop and evolve…

it's even reasonable for us to debate what they "should" optimize for…and I love the passion and depth of perspective in this space from customers/owners that we all are…

but I think it's clear they are not "optmizing" for being the best "EV choice" - they are choosing to optimize for other outcomes where they feel they can be successful…eFuel, exhaust note, ICE sales for mechanical superiority - playing to their historic and formidable strengths.

this will align with some customers, and not others…

they are in a pickle and what they optimize for in the next weeks, months, and years, decades will determine the fate of the company…

I feel they are on a trajectory that may lead them ultimately down the wrong path but the dead end natuire of that path won't be clear to them until it's to late.

but again I'm just some guy on the internet that has not ever run a successful car company - I do try and remember that occasionally -

but I'd give a lot of things to be a fly on the wall and really understand what they are doing, why they are doing it, and how they really really think this is going to play out…inflection points like this and how it plays out is always fascinating - OMG to be "in the room" on some of this stuff - would simply be amazing.

Nicely written Dave...

 

[whitex]

but I'd give a lot of things to be a fly on the wall and really understand what they are doing, why they are doing it, and how they really really think this is going to play out…inflection points like this and how it plays out is always fascinating - OMG to be "in the room" on some of this stuff - would simply be amazing.

You are assuming of course that Porsche has a cohesive visionary leadership driving the company in a clear direction and what they should be optimizing designs for, rather than the outcome is just sum of unrelated decisions by committee, most often optimizing for low risk and high profit. I personally worry that the latter is more of a case, especially with changing leadership. Design by committee = lower risk ("we all agreed, can't fire us all"), stick with status-quo = lower risk (sticking your neck out is a risk, doing what everyone's been doing is low risk), innovation = high risk. I foresee Porsche doing a similar deal as Audi, which resulted in AUDI (all capitals, no rings) company. Either that, or they acquire a company like Lucid, perhaps already waiting for Lucid to fall on hard times, to get a better price.

 

[f1eng]

‘The Most Humbling Thing I’ve Ever Seen’: Ford CEO On China’s Car Industry

Ford CEO Jim Farley said Chinese cars have "far superior" technology, lower costs and great quality.
As Farley tells it, Chinese firms have taken the in-vehicle digital experience up several notches, something our staff has noticed during visits to the country too. In the U.S., “technology” in most cars amounts to a media player, a navigation system and maybe some smart cruise control. China has pushed the envelope far beyond that.

“Huawei and Xiaomi are in every car,” Farley said, referring to two of China’s tech giants. “You get in, you don’t have to pair your phone. Automatically, your whole digital life is mirrored in the car. You have an AI companion that you can talk to … All the automatic payment is already there. You can buy movie tickets. It has facial recognition so it knows who’s in which seat and which media you like.”

“And even beyond that, their cost, their quality of their vehicles is far superior to what I see in the West,” Farley continued. “We are in a global competition with China, and it’s not just EVs. And if we lose this we do not have a future at Ford.”

What’s perhaps even more worrisome to carmakers trying to compete with Chinese offerings in markets around the world: The cars may be cheap, but they don’t feel like it.

“And even beyond that, their cost, their quality of their vehicles is far superior to what I see in the West,” Farley continued. “We are in a global competition with China, and it’s not just EVs. And if we lose this we do not have a future at Ford.”

My concern is that for a customer like me they need to be very cheap if they are like that because their useful life will be more like a phone or computer than a car.

I still have 2 cars bought new now over 20 years old that still do everything I want, some things better than modern cars. Their cost of ownership has been acceptably low because they last so long.
If they only are going to be "up to date" for 3 years and then need to be replaced they will have to be between 10% and 25% of the price I have found personally acceptable up to now.

I am clearly not their target market though

 

[chun]

My concern is that for a customer like me they need to be very cheap if they are like that because their useful life will be more like a phone or computer than a car.

I still have 2 cars bought new now over 20 years old that still do everything I want, some things better than modern cars. Their cost of ownership has been acceptably low because they last so long.
If they only are going to be "up to date" for 3 years and then need to be replaced they will have to be between 10% and 25% of the price I have found personally acceptable up to now.

I am clearly not their target market though

The Xiaomi SU7 Ultra costs about US $72,830, while the base Rimac Nevera starts around US $2.2 million ; aka a 3.31% of the Rimac's cost, for better performance.

Now, you may not be in the market for a Rimac, but that's where they were aiming with the performance, aiming for the very top.

So if you want performance, as a driver, I don't think there's better bang for the buck.

As Ford CEOs said, they have the price advantage, the quality advantage, the technology advantage, and now we know very clearly, the performance advantage too. I would say that's quite the bang for the buck, no matter what car you compare it against.

I don't see Porsche being able to compete, so their market share will keep on shrinking, as they are not willing to build cheap cars like the ones you would be willing to buy - but the chinese are very much willing to do it.

 

[Der-Schwabe]

The Xiaomi SU7 Ultra costs about US $72,830, while the base Rimac Nevera starts around US $2.2 million ; aka a 3.31% of the Rimac's cost, for better performance.

Now, you may not be in the market for a Rimac, but that's where they were aiming with the performance, aiming for the very top.

So if you want performance, as a driver, I don't think there's better bang for the buck.

As Ford CEOs said, they have the price advantage, the quality advantage, the technology advantage, and now we know very clearly, the performance advantage too. I would say that's quite the bang for the buck, no matter what car you compare it against.

I don't see Porsche being able to compete, so their market share will keep on shrinking, as they are not willing to build cheap cars like the ones you would be willing to buy - but the chinese are very much willing to do it.

Found this review from a German YouTuber called "CarManiac" useful (who only reviews BEVs). This review of an imported Xiaomi SU7 Max is rather interesting after he had spent 2 days with the car in March. He was overall complimentary about the vehicle but felt that the brakes were undersized and that handling was not at Taycan level (""Bremsen unterdimensioniert. (…) Es ist kein Porsche"") but that it represented strong competition to BMW & Volvo (another Chinese company...). Unfortunately, the review is in German...

 

[Der-Schwabe]

Spotted this video from yet another German YouTuber & Tuner JP Performance (Jean Pierre Kraemer) in Germany from last week that has had more than 1 million views who has managed to test drive the Xiaomi SU7 Ultra (it costs around 100,000 € when imported into Germany) on the roads around Dortmund & a test track called Lasise (short for "Ladungssicherung Selm" in a town called Selm near Dortmund in Germany (https://www.lasise.de/UEber-uns/Unternehmen/)). It is in German and the subtitles are also in German only.

I found it interesting as it was an honest assessment of where Xiaomi currently sits. The Xiaomi SU7 Ultra's build quality was overall impressive and the acceleration was impressive and lauded. However, when tested on aforementioned test track in "track-mode" (that released all 1500+ HPs), the handling in tight corners was lacking. It was remarked that it lacked "turn-in" and posted a track time 3 seconds slower than the Taycan Turbo GT and similar to the J1.1 Taycan Turbo S.

 

[chun]

Spotted this video from yet another German YouTuber & Tuner JP Performance (Jean Pierre Kraemer) in Germany from last week that has had more than 1 million views who has managed to test drive the Xiaomi SU7 Ultra (it costs around 100,000 € when imported into Germany) on the roads around Dortmund & a test track called Lasise (short for "Ladungssicherung Selm" in a town called Selm near Dortmund in Germany (https://www.lasise.de/UEber-uns/Unternehmen/)). It is in German and the subtitles are also in German only.

I found it interesting as it was an honest assessment of where Xiaomi currently sits. The Xiaomi SU7 Ultra's build quality was overall impressive and the acceleration was impressive and lauded. However, when tested on aforementioned test track in "track-mode" (that released all 1500+ HPs), the handling in tight corners was lacking. It was remarked that it lacked "turn-in" and posted a track time 3 seconds slower than the Taycan Turbo GT and similar to the J1.1 Taycan Turbo S.

To match a turbo GT, it would need the track pack option; which comes with different brakes and different suspension ( Dual-chamber air springs + adaptive dampers, with optional Bilstein EVO R/T1 coilovers for stronger adjustment and Bilstein EVO R coilovers, height-adjustable, 10-stage compression/rebound ); and costs 20k more.
It also adds a roll cage.

This optional track pack was on the car that beat the taycan turbo GT Weissach on the Nurburing;

The Xiaomi from the video costs 78k in China, so 100k in Europe is a good price, surprised it came so low. The track pack puts the Xiaomi at 100k in China, so would be 130k or so in Europe.

Good video. First time I see one reviewed in Europe. I saw one at an auto show, but no test driving allowed. Shockingly everything was already in English an operational in the system.

The fact that they are coming close / beating the taycan at 1/3 of the price is a great achievement for China. Xiaomi is a bit different to other Chinese manufacturers, as they opted for off the shelf components, similar to how Germans build cars, instead of vertical integration where they do everything, like BYD/Tesla.

 

[daveo4EV]

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2025/company/porsche-deliveries-first-half-2025-39972.html

Porsche is operating in a very very challenging environment based on their own press release

ooofff those Germany, Europe, China numbers…

 

[Der-Schwabe]

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2025/company/porsche-deliveries-first-half-2025-39972.html

Porsche is operating in a very very challenging environment based on their own press release

ooofff those Germany, Europe, China numbers…

Would not disagree. Curiously enough, the Taycan has outsold the Panamera 1,447 units vs 1,013 units, with a 5.4% increase vs a 2.1% increase January to June in Germany in a reversal of the international sales. Figures below show how the competitors fared in the segment with the segment decreasing by 19.8% based on the KBA figures published this week.