"Volkswagen Lost EV Revolution - Bracing for Defeat in Software Arena" - Article

[Tooney]

The elephant in the room: Volkswagen software subsidiary Cariad
However, another area might cause the most trouble, regardless of what type of vehicles Volkswagen will be making in the future. Electric vehicles are just one part of the problem, with software-defined vehicles being another. This is another area where Tesla showed the way and traditional carmakers failed to follow. However, none has failed as monumentally as Volkswagen and its software subsidiary Cariad.
. . .
At the end of April, Volkswagen Group's (and Porsche's) CEO Oliver Blume visited the Beijing Auto Show with Audi CEO Gernot Doellner. They were given the chance to test the electric Porsche Macan and Audi Q6, respectively, and compare them with the Chinese competition. A report by Manager Magazine [paywall] described Blume's reaction to the Audi Q6 e-tron as "a catastrophe." Meanwhile, Porsche switched to using different software to distance itself from Cariad.

The Audi Q6's software was the biggest cause of reflection for Blume. According to some test participants, the car displays were not always working, reflecting the software issues that have plagued the Group's vehicles for years. Just like the ID.3 was produced with incomplete software in 2020, the Audi Q6L e-tron assembled at Audi's new factory in Changchun will also be parked on overflow lots until the software issues are ironed out.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ther-defeat-in-the-software-arena-234088.html

 

[snstevens]

@whitex, @daveo4EV & @WasserGKuehlt -- Given your backgrounds I'm interested your thoughts on a secondary article referenced in the mentioned in the article above about Porsche possibly moving to Google Software for it's PCM systems in the future.

Good idea/bad idea? Would this eliminate the ability to use Apple CarPlay? Thoughts?

 

[Andics]

Android is not entirely "google software" as there are many components which are open source. In any case Polestar has always been the showcase car for Google at their I/O events and it supports Apple CarPlay, so I wouldn't be worried about that.

If Porsche (or the entire group) don't hire the right tech talent going full on Android won't solve much, as potentially the more out of the box implementations they would go for the more the car software will look like the ones from Dacia or Ford...

 

[chun]

The new macan EV is already on android auto; so I guess that speaks volume.

Probably any full new platform / car that is not just a refresh will be running that

 

[Uknown]

I read those as mostly just a base platform, not something which would exclude Apple CarPlay ..so much runs on Android this isn’t a huge shocker vs. rolling their own. I wish there was more competition though.

seems the Apple integration is also still in the works? https://www.snappautomotive.io/blog/the-state-of-android-automotive-in-2024

 

[daveo4EV]

@whitex, @daveo4EV & @WasserGKuehlt -- Given your backgrounds I'm interested your thoughts on a secondary article referenced in the mentioned above about Porsche possibly moving to Google Software for it's PCM systems in the future.

Good idea/bad idea? Would this eliminate the ability to use Apple CarPlay? Thoughts?

google software/android as a base platform is probably a reasonable approach - it's far more sophisticated and a fully functional OS vs. what ever VW could cobble together - also has a deeper bench of "talent" maintaining it…

the Macan EV is already on this platform and early reports is it's a "win" in general for performance - so Prosche just needs to "port" their PCM apps to run on this new platform which is a more robust OS with greater future set and scale…

CarPlay and Android Auto in this context is just an "app" that runs on top of the base platform…

VW was destined to lose this battle just like GM will lose their battle - a base OS requires a lot of effort and skill and you have to keep up with the times - auto manufactures are ill suited - even Tesla runs onto of some version of Linux and then integrates their app's on top of a robust and fully featured OS…

I see this an improvement hopefully and will free up resources to focus on things that they can do well…

 

[Uknown]

google software/android as a base platform is probably a reasonable approach - it's far more sophisticated and a fully functional OS vs. what ever VW could cobble together - also has a deeper bench of "talent" maintaining it…

the Macan EV is already on this platform and early reports is it's a "win" in general for performance - so Prosche just needs to "port" their PCM apps to run on this new platform which is a more robust OS with greater future set and scale…

CarPlay and Android Auto in this context is just an "app" that runs on top of the base platform…

VW was destined to lose this battle just like GM will lose their battle - a base OS requires a lot of effort and skill and you have to keep up with the times - auto manufactures are ill suited - even Tesla runs onto of some version of Linux and then integrates their app's on top of a robust and fully featured OS…

I see this an improvement hopefully and will free up resources to focus on things that they can do well…

Not completely related…and I don’t have much experience with Tesla, but it feels like their infotainment experience will lose in long run as they refuse to allow the phone extending apps like android and Apple offer. It seems like an uphill battle to compete against phone mirroring/extension features for infotainment…

 

[daveo4EV]

Not completely related…and I don’t have much experience with Tesla, but it feels like their infotainment experience will lose in long run as they refuse to allow the phone extending apps like android and Apple offer. It seems like an uphill battle to compete against phone mirroring/extension features for infotainment…

I agree 100% but both GM and Tesla are "resisting" phone mirroring - we'll see how this plays out - lack of CarPlay support is a serious consideration for me in purchasing a vehicle - there has to be overwhelming other reason to buy the car if I don't have CarPlay - so far I've not had to face that choice…but GM and Tesla will be a hard sell for me personally if there is no car play support.

 

[daveo4EV]

The real cause is not recognizing that the automotive pool that was once populated with tame fish is now attacked by sharks and piranha. Legacy carmakers were used to seeing things move slowly, even when regulators and the public wanted them to act fast. However, with the EV revolution, Tesla and new EV makers are pushing the industry too fast for traditional companies to follow.

A report

by Manager Magazine [paywall] described Blume's reaction to the Audi Q6 e-tron as "a catastrophe." Meanwhile, Porsche switched to using different software to distance itself from Cariad.

The Audi Q6's software was the biggest cause of reflection for Blume. According to some test participants, the car displays were not always working, reflecting the software issues that have plagued the Group's vehicles for years. Just like the ID.3 was produced with incomplete software in 2020, the Audi Q6L e-tron assembled at Audi's new factory in Changchun will also be parked on overflow lots until the software issues are ironed out.

emphasis mine - wow - software that prevents you from shipping a vehicle…

I agree with this - they didn't understand the game had changed…

 

[whitex]

@whitex, @daveo4EV & @WasserGKuehlt -- Given your backgrounds I'm interested your thoughts on a secondary article referenced in the mentioned above about Porsche possibly moving to Google Software for it's PCM systems in the future.

Good idea/bad idea? Would this eliminate the ability to use Apple CarPlay? Thoughts?

Not enough information of what that would mean. A company can take any part of Android and base their products on it. There are Android based products most people would never even recognize as Android. The question would be what exactly is Porsche looking to do. Are they using Android as an OS and writing their own apps, perhaps licensing some Google apps? I somehow doubt any automaker would ship stock Android which allows the full Google Play Store content on it, and sideloading of apps (like some tablets or phones do). OS is an operating system. Tesla runs on Linux. MacOS was based on (and still actively uses parts of) FreeBSD. EA chargers and many POS devices (cash registers) are based on Windows. At least one of ICBM's in US arsenal runs on Windows too. So the question is - what exactly is Porsche looking to do with Android? Is Google planning to release some automotive version of it and Porsche is willing to put a stock version of "as is"? I somehow doubt it. Car makers want differentiation, so they will develop their own apps, but developing your own operating system is not the differentiation they should care about.

I don't see Apple CarPlay support as something mutually exclusive with using Android. Even if Google doesn't provide the app, Porsche could write their own, or more likely buy/license it from one of their software suppliers, for example:
https://www.appliedintuition.com/news/porsche

 

[whitex]

I agree 100% but both GM and Tesla are "resisting" phone mirroring - we'll see how this plays out - lack of CarPlay support is a serious consideration for me in purchasing a vehicle - there has to be overwhelming other reason to buy the car if I don't have CarPlay - so far I've not had to face that choice…but GM and Tesla will be a hard sell for me personally if there is no car play support.

Faced with the choice, NACS or CarPlay, all else being equal, what would you choose?

 

[daveo4EV]

Faced with the choice, NACS or CarPlay, all else being equal, what would you choose?

that's a hard one…for me it's never been about NACS - it's supercharger access via NACS or adapter - so for an EV purchase I'd have to focus on the functionality for charging …

but I'd probably look for an alternative that provides supercharger access and CarPlay…

 

[whitex]

but I'd probably look for an alternative that provides supercharger access and CarPlay…

Of course given the choice you'd like to have your cake and eat it too. My hypothetical was about having to choose one and not the other.

If we're talking having your cake and eat it too, I'll go for Porsche chassis and interior finish but with Tesla interior space utilization, Tesla battery, motors and NACS (with CCS1 adapter supported), Tesla 48V and Ethernet based architecture, Tesla OTA, Tesla user experience but with a dedicated instrument cluster and screen layout designed for a driver instead of a tablet web app, CarPlay support and some Porsche or NIO features like night vision and active suspension (think dynamic enough to shake the snow off the car, or completely smooth out speed bumps), throw in some physical buttons and carbon roof from Audi, and and USB ports by the mirror for dashcam from KIA, oh and open documentation such as wiring diagrams, communications protocols. I'm sure I missed some things too, but it would be a good start.

Hmm... I think I just understood the motivation of a guy I heard of recently who is putting Tesla drive-train and electronics into a 911, probably throwing other manufacturer parts into the mix.

 

[daveo4EV]

Of course given the choice you'd like to have your cake and eat it too. My hypothetical was about having to choose one and not the other.

If we're talking having your cake and eat it too, I'll go for Porsche chassis and interior finish but with Tesla interior space utilization, Tesla battery, motors and NACS (with CCS1 adapter supported), Tesla 48V and Ethernet based architecture, Tesla OTA, Tesla user experience but with a dedicated instrument cluster and screen layout designed for a driver instead of a tablet web app, CarPlay support and some Porsche or NIO features like night vision and active suspension (think dynamic enough to shake the snow off the car, or completely smooth out speed bumps), throw in some physical buttons and carbon roof from Audi, and and USB ports by the mirror for dashcam from KIA, oh and open documentation such as wiring diagrams, communications protocols. I'm sure I missed some things too, but it would be a good start.

Hmm... I think I just understood the motivation of a guy I heard of recently who is putting Tesla drive-train and electronics into a 911, probably throwing other manufacturer parts into the mix.

I could see this - all the auto guys have their strengths - it would be awesome to ditch Porsche's software but keep their Mechanical engineering…

 

[Uknown]

I wonder how good/stable NCAS will be when Tesla really starts allowing the other vendors? The last 2 times I had any issue at EA there was a ford or ionic trying to use each stall and causing them to crash, restart. The Taycan just worked. EA has to deal with all the variance now and add in resilience.

Knock on wood but I have had awesome experience with EA lately, last trip up to MSP and back I barely had time to go to the bathroom and come back and the car had more than enough range added to it. The only reason I care about NCAS is more options along the way. For the next 5 years I will take CarPlay and Taycan charging capability over NCAS if i couldn’t have both.