[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[daveo4EV]

Would not disagree. Curiously enough, the Taycan has outsold the Panamera 1,447 units vs 1,013 units, with a 5.4% increase vs a 2.1% increase January to June in Germany in a reversal of the international sales. Figures below show how the competitors fared in the segment with the segment decreasing by 19.8% based on the KBA figures published this week.

I agree all these numbers tell an interesting tale - half full or half empty is plausible depending on attitude and desired outcome (your personal bias - not "you" @Der-Schwabe - but someone's personal bias could spin the tale as positive, neutral, or negative)

Increasingly I see an EV drive train as "a choice" - ICE, Hybrid, Diesel, EV - I'm thinking with out both the ICE and EV drive trains Porsche would be even worse off but maybe I'm wrong…

I'm 8+ months "in" on my Macan EV and other than software glitches (nothing major) the vehicle has been rock solid and good…and as we all know instant EV torque is a joy along with the low CG it's a great Mid-sized SUV.

I'm looking forward to the Cayenne EV (but terrified of it's potential pricing) and I think a 718 EV could co-exist along side an ICE 718 and let customer's choose…

 

[Tooney]

US deliveries

https://press.porsche.com/prod/pres...onid=1711359&hl=unternehmen-presseinformation

 

[whitex]

I think a 718 EV could co-exist along side an ICE 718 and let customer's choose…

What would be really interesting if they two were priced the same, then the sales in different region would tell us an interesting story.

 

[Der-Schwabe]

Interesting very recent review from the RTL TV station's YouTube channel. I've mentioned it here as Lucid was mentioned in this thread of being close competition for the Taycan. This is also a rare base-equipment level review of a base-level Taycan vs a Lucid Air Pure. Charging performance, range, interior & build quality & handling are considered. Remarkably a 4:0 result for the Taycan in the end. Luckily it is dubbed into English (reasonably well). Have a gander...

 

[daveo4EV]

Interesting very recent review from the RTL TV station's YouTube channel. I've mentioned it here as Lucid was mentioned in this thread of being close competition for the Taycan. This is also a rare base-equipment level review of a base-level Taycan vs a Lucid Air Pure. Charging performance, range, interior & build quality & handling are considered. Remarkably a 4:0 result for the Taycan in the end. Luckily it is dubbed into English (reasonably well). Have a gander...

I agree with this review - and personally said so over 2 years ago - https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/spent-some-time-w-lucid-air-this-morning…-impressions.13875/

I am not an Air customer - but will be evaluating the Gravity - if they haven't improved vs the Air, i will be back to other non-lucid options…

 

[daveo4EV]

it's the price stupid!

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...o-offset-weak-sales-u-s-tariffs-report.28473/

 

[Tooney]

“Porsche's business model, which has served Porsche well for many decades, no longer works in its current form.”​

Quote from @daveo4EV ?
Nope.

 

[Tooney]

Volkswagen shareholder Porsche SE eyes defence, infrastructure for new investments
BERLIN (Reuters) -Porsche SE, Volkswagen's largest shareholder, is eyeing defence and infrastructure as possible new long-term investment areas, it said on Wednesday, adding there were no plans to sell shares in Volkswagen or Porsche AG.

(Paywalled): Billionaire Porsche family prepares for war with new defence fund
(unpaywalled version): https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/billionaire-porsche-family-prepares-war-130643943.html

 

[Vercingetorix]

Problem with Lucid, from Car and Driver:
A 4.1-mile lap in Hot Lap mode uses about 25 percent of the battery and puts enough heat into the motors and pack that the Sapphire is only good for one fast lap at a time.
Typical American car BS.

 

[f1eng]

Problem with Lucid, from Car and Driver:
A 4.1-mile lap in Hot Lap mode uses about 25 percent of the battery and puts enough heat into the motors and pack that the Sapphire is only good for one fast lap at a time.
Typical American car BS.

The lecturer in Electrical engineering in my degree course at Imperial College, London (in 1969) was an old boy who had been involved in the design of several of the traction systems in the London Underground railway. All exam questions were about rating motors to be just good enough for the most extreme condition - which was usually one particular incline between two stations,
His point was the size and efficiency of the motor was determined by the heaviest load case and rating the power train for a higher load case was a waste of money, weight and efficiency.

With a road car the load case for most people will be very, very much lower than the maximum specified power and I am sure, whilst things like headline power figures and acceleration times are important in the marketing 99% of users will only exploit them 1% of their driving time.

The question then becomes, does range - which every user and journalist bangs on about almost continuously when discussing EVs - mean more to most users than being able to use the power train at maximum output continuously for a long time?

In the case of Lucid (and probably Tesla) the driveline was designed for a more average use case than Porsche - pragmatic production engineering and typical of US cars IMO.
Yes my Taycan can do more flat out laps around a circuit before something gets too hot and performance is restricted, Lucids and Teslas generally can not.
OTOH they probably have lower electricity consumption in normal use.

It is a design choice that has to be made.

 

[tigerbalm]

In the case of Lucid (and probably Tesla) the driveline was designed for a more average use case than Porsche - pragmatic production engineering and typical of US cars IMO.
Yes my Taycan can do more flat out laps around a circuit before something gets too hot and performance is restricted (the battery usually I believe), Lucids and Teslas generally can not.
OTOH they probably have lower electricity consumption in normal use.

It is a design choice that has to be made.

Agreed. Though their CEO does (expertly) send some snark to the less sophisticated designs of both Tesla and Porsche (mentioned in all but name) motors in their tech talk video from three years ago:

 

[whitex]

His point was the size and efficiency of the motor was determined by the heaviest load case and rating the power train for a higher load case was a waste of money, weight and efficiency.

With a road car the load case for most people will be very, very much lower than the maximum specified power and I am sure, whilst things like headline power figures and acceleration times are important in the marketing 99% of users will only exploit them 1% of their driving time.

Ok, so if they do exploit them 1% of the time, then that is their heaviest load case, therefore that is the correct rating. Just like the one incline for the train, on which it probably spent 1% of its use.

The question then becomes, does range - which every user and journalist bangs on about almost continuously when discussing EVs - mean more to most users than being able to use the power train at maximum output continuously for a long time?

What is important to whom is always the big question. If range is your top priority, you can increase it in many ways, like make the car able to carry less (less seats, less luggage), reduce its weight (expensive lightweight parts, remove second motor, reduce the motor size, etc), make it more aerodynamic at cost of esthetics, reduce its max power to just enough to get you there, limit max speed. All of those can be traded off for range. Every design needs to balance end-user priorities. Personally, I didn't buy my Taycan for max range, I bought it for performance, as long as it has sufficient range for road-trips, which for my usecase is ~200 miles. Would I like more range, sure, as long as it doesn't come at a cost of weight, performance, or too much money (e.g. it is definitely not worth it to me to trade my 2023 Taycan for identical 2026 Taycan just to get a few more miles).

 

[Vercingetorix]

VIR is at 531 feet. I wonder how long a Lucid would last at some place like Pikes Peak raceway at 6000 ft. I wonder how long a Taycan could last.

 

[daveo4EV]

VIR is at 531 feet. I wonder how long a Lucid would last at some place like Pikes Peak raceway at 6000 ft. I wonder how long a Taycan could last.

my 2020 Taycan was "good" for less than 15 min of full pace driving @ Laguna Seca (not enough stamina to participate in a normal HPDE 25-30 min track session) - after that you reach 132F battery temp and then max power on the throttle is limited to lower max discharge rate…

the Taycan has about enough thermal capacity/cooling for setting lap times @ the ring - which includes one out lap -and at least one "hot" lap…this is one of the reasons PCCB's are pointless on this vehicle it doesn't have enough stamina for high performance driving to need high thermal capacity brakes - Taycan's high performance ability is less than a normal series sprint race duration.

in conversations with various Porsche engineers I've met the offiical Taycan ring lap tricky are tricky tricky tricky to pull off for both consumption and battery thermal management…

Typcial German BS

EV's are great daily drivers - current battery tech is not great for max power applications due to numerous thermal issues…they however excel at normal/legal driving tasks…

 

[f1eng]

EV's are great daily drivers - current battery tech is not great for max power applications due to numerous thermal issues…they however excel at normal/legal driving tasks…

Indeed.
EVs are daily drivers.
Too heavy for racing, and road targeted versions not got the thermal capacity.