[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[chun]

I doubt it. No law says they have to open the network to anyone. Even the government incentives only require one other company with access to infrastructure (the last administration worded the qualifications for the billions of grants as "EV charging not locked to a single vendor", so Tesla + Ford definitely qualifies).

In USA. In Europe there is such a law, it’s why Tesla never bothered with the bullshit they do in USA. In Europe tesla is just another EC, no infrastructure advantage, because everyone has access to Tesla chargers, by law

But I don’t think Tesla has any interest from restricting any company from using their chargers. In USA they abused the lack of regulations on the matter to become the default. Now that they are the default, it’s time to get the profits. After all, the more people charge, the more money they make as a charger operator

 

[Tooney]

Porsche Newsroom: The iconic 911 takes the spotlight as Porsche unveils cars at Auto Shanghai
For more than six decades, the Porsche 911 has captivated sports car enthusiasts around the world. At the Auto Shanghai show, two very special variants of Zuffenhausen’s icon have made their debut: the 911 Spirit 70 and the 911 GT3.
“The 911 is our icon. It combines our heritage with state-of-the-art sports car technology - and has been setting standards for decades. This unique combination of tradition and innovation is what defines the Porsche brand. We have designed this year's booth at the Shanghai Auto Show based on this", said CEO Dr. Oliver Blume at the Porsche press conference.

 

[daveo4EV]

In USA. In Europe there is such a law, it’s why Tesla never bothered with the bullshit they do in USA. In Europe tesla is just another EC, no infrastructure advantage, because everyone has access to Tesla chargers, by law

But I don’t think Tesla has any interest from restricting any company from using their chargers. In USA they abused the lack of regulations on the matter to become the default. Now that they are the default, it’s time to get the profits. After all, the more people charge, the more money they make as a charger operator

this is incorrect - there are and were (many in early days) supercharger sites that are not open to non-teslas in europe (UK in particular)

european law regulates technical compatibility but does not require you allow everyone to use your network - no different than not allowing gas cars to fuel at a private commercial gasoline facility - even though there is no technical reason the gas cars could not use the facility

 

[chun]

this is incorrect - there are and were (many in early days) supercharger sites that are not open to non-teslas in europe (UK in particular)

european law regulates technical compatibility but does not require you allow everyone to use your network - no different than not allowing gas cars to fuel at a private commercial gasoline facility - even though there is no technical reason the gas cars could not use the facility

Maybe very early on it would have been possible for tesla to pull same bs as in USA, but EU put regulations in place as soon as EU started public investment into EVs and EV chargers, for projects that were not on-going - Alternative Fuels Infrastructure Regulation (AFIR Regulation (EU) 2023/1804 ), and Tesla is adhering to them also.

The EU’s "Fit for 55" package includes rules requiring charging networks to be accessible to all EVs, not just specific brands. For example, the new law mandates that charging stations along the Trans-European Transport Network (TEN-T) must allow ad-hoc payments via card or contactless devices without requiring subscriptions or brand-specific apps 246

This effectively prevents Tesla from limiting access to its chargers if they are part of this network.

The regulations also standardize charging connectors (e.g., CCS Combo 2 in Europe), ensuring compatibility across brands.

Tesla received nearly $150 million in EU funding - part of the AFIF public grants agreement - to expand its Supercharger network ( which is now part of the TEN-T core network since 2021) , with the requirement that installations comply with EU accessibility standards mentioned above.

European law differentiates between publicly funded or designated “public” charging infrastructure—which must meet interoperability, payment, and transparency requirements—and privately funded. In the case of the Tesla's network, it is not privately funded, and it very much falls under public infrastructure funded by EU money.

So no, they legally are no longer capable to taking the tesla charging network private just for tesla's. They can turn it off, completely, and claim bankruptcy, in which case they would be forced by EU to sell the infrastructure.

EU is very "trigger happy" with massive fines when it comes to American companies trying to dodge, bend, avoid or break EU regulations - see apple, google, microsoft and amazon; and smaller cases even with Tesla.

 

[mikezhang31]

Porsche pricing over the last decade is getting a little bit out of hand.

I bought a mclaren 600LT last month, and it boggles my mind that someone would pay the same amount of dollars for a 911 GTS as a ground up supercar with carbon fiber chassis.

 

[Scandinavian]

Maybe very early on it would have been possible, but EU put regulations in place as soon as EU started public investment into EVs and EV chargers, for projects that were not on-going - Alternative Fuels Infrastructure Regulation (AFIR Regulation (EU) 2023/1804 ), and Tesla is adhering to them also.

Interesting to note that Tesla indeed seem to have opened most SuC in Europe to cater for all EV’s. I had not noted this before so it must have been a fairly recent event!

But there still are some sites that are not opened.??? !!! I have 2 close tome that are as yet not available to me, only Tesla cars! One is a large site with 16SuC close to home and two more with 10 SuC on a route I travel quite frequently and would be useful. Maybe they will open in a near future?

 

[chun]

Interesting to note that Tesla indeed seem to have opened most SuC in Europe to cater for all EV’s. I had not noted this before so it must have been a fairly recent event!

But there still are some sites that are not opened.??? !!! I have 2 close tome that are as yet not available to me, only Tesla cars! One is a large site with 16SuC close to home and two more with 10 SuC on a route I travel quite frequently and would be useful. Maybe they will open in a near future?

1. Are you sure they are open at all? Maybe they are just closed completely, broken.
2. It could be that they are from before any deals with EU were signed, and they are not encompassed by the deal - but i find it unlikely, as the deal covers most locations adjacent to public places or highways
3. It could be an overlook - human mistake?. You could always reach out to Tesla support and check with them.

I think the Tesla signed/agreed in 2021 or 2020, and Netherlands was the country to pilot this first. Other countries followed soon after.

To clarify, most tesla location don't yet fully comply with regulations, as you still need tesla app to pay/start charging, so not sure if you need to use the tesla app for some, and some not. I only tried with tesla app.

 

[Scandinavian]

1. Are you sure they are open at all? Maybe they are just closed completely, broken.
2. It could be that they are from before any deals with EU were signed, and they are not encompassed by the deal - but i find it unlikely, as the deal covers most locations adjacent to public places or highways
3. It could be an overlook - human mistake?. You could always reach out to Tesla support and check with them.

I think the Tesla signed/agreed in 2021 or 2020, and Netherlands was the country to pilot this first. Other countries followed soon after.

To clarify, most tesla location don't yet fully comply with regulations, as you still need tesla app to pay/start charging, so not sure if you need to use the tesla app for some, and some not. I only tried with tesla app.

Yes I am sure that they work. We used to charge our Tesla at the one with 16 chargers! It is in the car park at a hypermarket, Carrefour. Still see many Tesla’s charging there when we visit. They are also positioned sideways so would suit to charge the Taycan there. Two ff the places are about 4 years old so quite recent.
’And yes I always use the Tesla app. I do not trust any contact less card readers around us or in Italy or Spain any longer. I have had too many cards skimmed around these places. Even at a toll booth in northern Spain!

 

[whitex]

In USA. In Europe there is such a law, it’s why Tesla never bothered with the bullshit they do in USA. In Europe tesla is just another EC, no infrastructure advantage, because everyone has access to Tesla chargers, by law

But I don’t think Tesla has any interest from restricting any company from using their chargers. In USA they abused the lack of regulations on the matter to become the default. Now that they are the default, it’s time to get the profits. After all, the more people charge, the more money they make as a charger operator

So yes, Elon could keep Chinese cars off the network in the US, but if Chinese cars do come here, they would probably want to build out their own, including Nio battery swap stations. None of it will happen any time soon - Trump proved the US market can be very volatile, change wildly based on the mood he's in when he gets up, and maybe what dreams he had. So why would anyone want to invest in US infrastructure knowing Trump may change his mind and ban your products, flushing your investment down the toilet.

 

[daveo4EV]

Interesting to note that Tesla indeed seem to have opened most SuC in Europe to cater for all EV’s. I had not noted this before so it must have been a fairly recent event!

But there still are some sites that are not opened.??? !!! I have 2 close tome that are as yet not available to me, only Tesla cars! One is a large site with 16SuC close to home and two more with 10 SuC on a route I travel quite frequently and would be useful. Maybe they will open in a near future?

this is my point - most but not all Supercharger sites are open to non-teslas even europe

 

[Tooney]

Porsche’s Brutal Year Might Only Be Starting After China Sales Collapse

Deliveries in China fell 42 percent and Porsche took a hit from decision to switch up its battery strategy.​

Porsche invests decisively in its future - Porsche Newsroom

 

[chun]

In the China region, deliveries fell by 42 per cent. The main reasons for this decrease remain the very challenging market conditions, especially in the luxury segment, and the high level of competition in the Chinese market. Porsche continues to rely on its value-oriented strategy of ‘value over volume’ and a globally balanced sales structure in order to make the company even more resilient.

Every quarter they seem surprised by the "challenging market conditions" in China. Aka, competition. Chinese have a ultra competitive auto market industry, where only the best products survive. And Porsche is offering less innovation, less product, less everything at 3 to 10x the price.

With how much importance chinese customers put on software and in-car features/entertainment, these "surprises" will only continue for Porsche, until they get their shit together.

Good news however is that in EU/NA EV sales share is increasing. For how long? I would suspect until first chinese cars hit the shores of those continents

 

[Tooney]

Volkswagen shareholders demand carmaker reform ‘highly problematic’ governance
At the carmaker’s virtual annual general meeting, several major investors took aim at CEO Oliver Blume’s dual role as head of both Volkswagen and Porsche AG, a contentious issue since Porsche’s listing as a separate company in September 2022.

“Mr Blume, once again we make the urgent appeal: give one of your board positions up,” said Ingo Speich of Deka Investment, stating that conflicts of interest across the carmaker’s governance structure were “highly problematic” and causing “grave damage to reputation and enormous financial losses.”

Volkswagen’s share price has dropped by nearly 25% in the past year from 140.40 euros to 105.6 euros, underperforming the European autos index and Germany’s DAX, according to LSEG data.

The carmaker, which warned last month it would likely hit the bottom end of its annual profit margin forecast, is battling challenges in all its key markets, from steep tariffs in the United States to fierce competition in China and high costs in Europe.

 

[Tooney]

Porsche's Current Tough Spot Is a Lesson on the Automotive Industry

According to them, 911 owners would leave their cars for repair and ask for new brakes, tires, and even some updates. They knew their cars very well and paid their bills without complaints. Cayenne drivers would not know that their tires were wearing out and would try to argue they were still fine to dodge the expense of replacing them. Evidently, there were some exceptions, but they mostly confirmed the rule.

The consequence was that 911s do not depreciate that much. It is frequently the opposite, with some of them achieving higher prices as used vehicles than when they were new, such as with the 911 Carrera RS 2.7. The same happened with the Porsche 959, the 918 Spyder, and other gems the company has created. A used Cayenne is just a thirsty old machine that used car buyers avoid because it eats expensive tires for breakfast.

That brand degradation did not seem to affect sales until Porsche was forced to include battery electric vehicles (BEVs) in its portfolio. The Taycan was the first one. Praised as one of the best electric cars available when it was first introduced, it had an 800V platform, which translated into one of the fastest charging experiences money could buy.

Above all, it was up to Porsche's standards of handling and performance. If Wiedeking still ruled the company, you know what he would have said about it. The Taycan had everything to win in China, the market Porsche probably targeted the most with its first BEV. Nonetheless, buyers did not want it, as they do not want the electric Macan, one of the company's main nameplates.

 

[whitex]

Nonetheless, buyers did not want it, as they do not want the electric Macan, one of the company's main nameplates.

While I can see the argument of Taycan being a heavy car and a sedan, so 911 offers a much different track experience, I am a little puzzled why someone would pick an ICE Macan over EV. Is it that Macans are sold mostly to people who don't have garages where they could charge their cars at home? Are ICE Macans built for street parking customers, or perhaps professional ride-share or delivery drivers who don't want to waste time charging? Or is it that Macan buyers buy into conspiracy theories, how EV's blow up when you drive them? I'd think any Macan buyer who pays extra to have a faster ICE trim, would jump on the EV option with much faster acceleration and more power.

Perhaps a Taycan forum is not the right place to ask this question, but does anyone have any ideas why someone would choose a slower ICE Macan over a faster, more powerful, more modern Macan EV at a similar price?